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 Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke. 
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Chibi-Czar
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Post Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Not wanting to start a flame war, though with BTL and SC present on the boards I expect it'll happen anyway. This is crossposted from here, which I invite you to read and/or comment on. To forestall any other accusations, and to be clear about my final point; I'm not talking about sending Crusaders into the middle east. We tried that once and it didn't work. I'm talking about sending missionaries instead of soldiers.

So;

Now, if anyone who's a Muslim or dogmatic multiculturalist reads this they will probably assume I am the world's greatest jerk. That they're right doesn't mean I'm not. On the other hand if you're looking at the violence in the middle east and wondering how far Israel has to be pushed before they start nuking people, this will make a little more sense to you.

Coming from the west, that is, from a primarily Christian or Christian-influenced culture, holding human life in high value and being aware of the terrors of war, especially war in the nuclear/post-nuclear age, the middle east presents a real problem. These are nations and peoples locked into milennia of tribal conflict, who believe that those not of their tribe or religion or sect are not only wrong but sub-human and not deserving rights granted to "believers." Their reaction to insult is blood feud. Their reaction to military action is blood feud. Their reaction to nearly anything from the west is violent, bloody, and often murderous. Yet we in the west want to get along with everyone. Some of us, the multiculturalists especially, want everyone to like and agree with us. Others of us simply want to be left alone in disagreement. The middle east holds large groups of people (pretty easily defined as dar al-Islam) who will neither agree with us, like us, or tolerate disagreement; even stating opposition to their values is a mortal insult that they must repay in blood. "Behead those who insult Islam."

In short, and to use a common phrase, there is no living with these people. Attempts at tolerance will see us subjugated or eradicated. Either dar al-Islam must be destroyed, or dar al-Harb must be destroyed. Dar al-Islam has prove itself equal to the task of, if not extinguishing, at least viciously supressing, anything not Islamic within its boundaries. Dar al-Harb on the other hand is anathema to attempting to destroy ideas- and that's what Islam is, like every other religion. An idea. You can't kill an idea. So does this mean dar al-Islam is guaranteed eventual victory? I don't think so. You see, there is that common saying, "Nuke Tehran." And, insofar as it would eliminate one of the worse cancers or tyranny in the world, I don't know as I'd mind it much- at least compared to other targets for a nuke, like Paris or New York. But even if Tehran goes, there's still Dubai. Or Baghdad. Or Al-Awja. You can't kill an idea. And, frankly, even if a war were to destroy all of the middle east, there's still England, and Malaysia, and Paris suburbs. The idea would live on, and so would the violence.

Over a thousand years ago, Christians in Roman territories were threatened by savages who raped and pillaged and murdered. They were fierce warriors capable of mounting rapid, unforeseen attacks and causing terrible damage to the infrastructure of civilization. Military expeditions were not doing well against them. They were across every border for thousands of miles, waiting to strike. Military expeditions were mounted with some regularity, and had some effect, but could never eliminate those savages, and as soon as they left, the savages returned, strengthened by ransoms paid or tribute offered. Among the descendants of those savages were Martin Luther, John Knox, Thomas More, and Saint Patrick. The regions those savages controlled are considered the cradles of some of the greatest theological and philosophical movements of all time, like Wurms and the Irish monastaries that rebooted civilization. Modern Christianity, which has seized conduct in war for over 1,000 years and throttled it into chains that bind it from the slaughter of children, rape, and pillage, owes much of its existence to those who came after the very savages that slaughtered, raped, and pillaged.

The solution to the problem of the middle east is not, tempting as it may be, to nuke Tehran. The solution is to send missionaries to die and be tortured at the hands of Muslims. And then to send more of them. And then to send more. If Islam gains dominance, all Christians will see suppression, murder, rape, and torture whether they go on mission or not; the promotion of some or many or even all missionaries-to-Islam to heaven is not something that concerns them much. I think that sending those willing to die in order to bring Islam to Christ is the best possible solution. Many will die in this conflict no matter which path we take. Our only choice, I think, is who, when, and why.

PS: There was some suggestion that the resultant culture would be a blend of Christianity and Islam. I do not think it would be; they are anathema to each other. However, I do agree that it would be a blend of Christianity and Arabia, in much the same way the Orthodox church includes cultural elements from Greece and Russia, etc.

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Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:40 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Tozetre wrote:
Not wanting to start a flame war, though with BTL and SC present on the boards I expect it'll happen anyway.


Interesting post. But otherwise, don't flatter yourself. If SC wants to have at it, he can, but I have far more important things, online and off, to do.

By the way, welcome back.

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Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:47 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
B.T.L. wrote:
But otherwise, don't flatter yourself.


It was more an observation of statistics, oh he who has responded to the thread anyway.

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Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:00 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
I said what I meant; the main body of the post is about something quite interesting, and I'd be happy to debate it - but given our history, that's unlikely. If SC wants to take a crack at it (and it looks like he probably won't) then fine. Myself, I don't want to get into that again; and despite your ad hominem 'observation of statistics', I'm not going to. Considering that the post came from your own board, I find it sad that the first time I see you here again, you're going right back to your old habits of picking fights by taking unecessary shots at people in the course of trying to raise an issue for discussion. You're going to have to look elsewhere for flame wars - like, say, your own board?

And that's my last word on the subject.

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Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:41 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
B.T.L. wrote:
I have far more important things, online and off, to do.


B.T.L. wrote:
And that's my last word on the subject.


Don't mind me, I'm just counting how many times you're "done." No harm or foul, mind, since I think I'm on "I'm never coming back here again, tantrum, stomp stomp stomp" #2 or #3. And thanks for your positive comments!

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:42 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Congrads. 4 replies in and nothing useful said.

Stop assuming any old flamewars you remember will instantly reignite. They usually will if you start announcing "Oh, Golly Gee...I bet this is going to piss someone off. But I'm going to post it anyway and show them that I don't care."

I invite anyone else interested to review the new board software's "ignore" features if you truly find certain posters not worth responding to. It works much better than a mutual "I'm not talking to you!" "Hahah, you just talked to me!" "No I diddint!" sequence.

Thanks.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:14 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
I invite anyone else interested to review the new board software's "ignore" features...


Done and done. Thanks for reminding me about that! :)

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:59 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Hey, I was keeping a cheerful tone this time around, thank you very much. :P And it's not like anyone else bothered posting.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Actually, I *was* going to post on this...that's why I didn't bother locking it. :P Mwhahaha.

Ideally, conversion is the better alternative to holy war in both Christianity and Islam, so I definitely see the benefits of the "pray not nuke" idea. I'm not sure about the long-term story on it, but there have even been a few instances where Westerners were let free from the Beheading-Of-The-Week bullshit by converting to Islam (serious or not?), so the idea is certainly mutual.

The problem with comparing current day to early Roman-Christian era missionaries being sent to the wolves is that you're not only dealing with differences in Faith, but also Culture, Nationalism and an insane amount of misdirection, propaganda and media bullshit on both sides. I remember quite vividly on the news they were interviewing a pair of US soldiers who had just barely survived a carbomb ambush in Iraq, and had a fire-fight out with 3 or 4 Iraqi insurgents. During the fight, one of the US guys managed to get to one of his attackers and shot him in the car he was using for cover. He was startled to hear the Iraqi holding a crucifix and learned later on the man was a Christian as well. By the numbers, I'm sure this was a scene that only represented a minority, but I would be hard pressed to believe it was the only instance; the point being is that war is still being waged by those who are of the same faith, based on ideas that are warping Islam as well, such as the irrational hatred of Western Culture, a blood debt owed to another group or city, or disagrements on war and policy.

Swap the Middle East for Closer To Home and you still have children in the US and Canada being taught that people of different coloured skin are evil, less than human, and to be exterminated at all cost in the name of the good Lord. You and I may not consider such actions to be very Christ like, but again, it's not so much the faith as how it's been used by the Culture – and in this case the Culture could be a Family, or a Cult, or just a certain geographical area…not necessarily West VS East. Breed a culture of hate, frustration, and desperation, and you can freely substitute your choice of deity without skipping a beat...or modify the one you believe in to include allowances for all those terrible things you need to do to your enemies. Good point on this is how Canadian Muslims outcry the instances of Muslim fathers killing their kids or beating their wives in far too many recent news stories: Same faith, different culture, different views.

To actually, honestly, and truly propose this plan to send missionaries to convert the Middle East, certain cultural roadblocks *must* be brought down first. Words cannot be heard, actions cannot be seen, and faith cannot be shared when someone has hardened their heart against it. As for "blending" I think the focus should be more on understanding and communication.

Sending endless waves of Christian Missionaries over to be tortured and slaughtered will do nothing in any permanent, wide-spread fashion except to enforce the factions in Christianity who believe Muslims to be evil and barbaric and worthy of extermination. No matter how willing and self sacrificing the people are, others are only looking for excuses, and a martyr is an excellent excuse.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
there have even been a few instances where Westerners were let free from the Beheading-Of-The-Week bullshit by converting to Islam (serious or not?), so the idea is certainly mutual.


Sorry, mutual? It's fully Islamic to behead someone unless they convert to Islam. Not so with Christianity. Beheadings, if they happen at all (afaik they don't) are presumably the carrying-out of justice, not a threat to convert. We tried that centuries ago, and we didn't like it.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
The problem with comparing current day to early Roman-Christian era missionaries being sent to the wolves is that


Is that I'm not? I referenced Rome and Europe to point out the transformative nature of our faith. Missionaries today- look, there's website development guidelines recommended for churches that include instructions like "do not post missionary information; it is illegal by religious law in many countries in which missionaries serve to prosletize. They could be killed if they were found out." There's already missionaries in Saudi Arabia risking death. I personally know missionaries in Cuba that have had their lives threatened and had attempts on their lives made with arson.

The Middle East isn't a special case when it comes to violence against Christians, radical nationalism, or a different culture. Cuba, China, North Korea, South America- Muslims aren't special or unique except in their filming the martyrdoms.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
I would be hard pressed to believe it was the only instance; the point being is that war is still being waged by those who are of the same faith,


That is complete poppycock. You can't cite one example of a Catholic Arab involved in violence- boo on his decision by the way- and assert that the overwhelmingly Muslim population is into war against "The Great Satan" while screaming "God is great" before/while murdering prisoners and innocents because they're simply nationalists. As Mike says, that dog don't hunt.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
To actually, honestly, and truly propose this plan to send missionaries to convert the Middle East, certain cultural roadblocks *must* be brought down first.


My friend, you are woefully ignorant of the history of missions. Who do you think did most of the language-learning, translation, and cultural outreach in the last 500 years? Missionaries are the ones who bring down the cultural roadblocks, man! Don't you attend an Anglican church? Even the Anglicans, who were definitely not the most mission-minded group, got involved in missions all over the planet.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
Sending endless waves of Christian Missionaries over to be tortured and slaughtered will do nothing in any permanent, wide-spread fashion


I- you- what? *waves vigorously toward Western Europe* Did you forget modern civilization or something? Missions work preceded assumption into the Roman Empire. Missions work in which endless waves of Christian missionaries were tortured and slaughtered. Or, for that matter, the conversion of the Empire itself was accomplished in the midst of endless waves of torture and slaughter of Christians. Nero? Diocletian? Christian torches for garden parties? Lions getting too full to devour any more martyrs? Ring any bells?

I realize you're not a very old Christian, but you really should take the time to read the stories of those who've gone before you. Iraneus is a good place to start. It's not about what we do, man. It's about what God does through us- and He regularly accomplishes incredible things with just a few people- especially a few people that meet horrific ends at the hands of the lost. Like, I dunno, Peter. And Paul. And James. Oh yeah, and Jesus, who also happened to be God incarnate and got Himself killed the messiest, most painful way available at the time. Tell me again how sending someone to die can't possibly have an effect?

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Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:53 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
I'm not arguing that missionaries are a) Needed, and b) Are effective, nor c) That God works through us and has in the past through missionaries.

My argument is that to compare the situation to previous eras has a few fundamental flaws...one of the biggest being not how Islam sees Christians, but on how Christians see Christians and Muslims, and the current version of the churches throughout Christianity.

Currently, the bulk of Christians in the Middle East are there in pure humanitarian roles. IE, Food, Shelter, Health and Peace capacities. The main reason these roles are active and mass missionary movements are not is because of the very loaded political situation...not just with the current instability of the region, but church politics are the biggest killer to your idea.

Show me wide-scale support by the churches of the Westernized World, and then I think the plan has a chance...truly and honestly. Unfortunately, disagreements, in-fighting, and good old religious apathy make it hard to get any kind of organization out of those who could send servants for the Lord...from the Lord, and not as some kind of loaded political proposal.

It's not all current churches fault, though, either.

Because Christianity is so closely associated with certain countries, governments and leaders, Islam is going to react to both the faith AND the countries, no matter how inaccurate that stance is. And while Jesus' flock has certainly been politically motivated before, you'll see a lot different levels of support from the countries sending the missionaries to convert / die trying depending on the situation. Those are my big worries with the plan. That's why I wanted to illustrate the fact there ARE Christian Iraqis shooting at Christian US troops. It's not so much a war of faiths as it is a war of cultures and nationalities. It's also why I mentioned it will be dangerous due to a bunch of morons here in North America wanting to start shouting "Crusade! Crusade!" if a whackload of missionaries show up with their heads chopped off. We already have militant, dangerous Christians. Just because they usually get caught here doesn't mean they don't exist and Islam has the monopoly on them. Plenty of Muslims denounce the beheadings, violence, and cry out for peace, just as the majority of Christians do and would continue to do if blood is spilt.

The alternative would be enough Christians coming together and organizing it in a grass-roots basis. That actually has a chance of succeeding where I think the larger missionary projects would fail...at least for the first bit. The larger political-motivated bodies could distance themselves from the actions until they saw it working (God willing...) and then step up and help out. Not only that, but a personal movement would negate a LOT of bad feelings for possible sympathizers. "Oh, I'd love to help out...but then I have to deal with the White House, or the Jihadists next door..." People and People talking = Win. People VS Country = Fail.

Just my $0.02 :) Like i said...the idea is good, and I think it would work if it was truly Missionaries for the Lord preaching to people...not the manipulation of well-meaning Christians for political, economic, or social reasons. It's that manipulation I see as the downfall to the plan, and the reason certain things have to be fixed, or at least addressed first.

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Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:57 pm
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
Show me wide-scale support by the churches of the Westernized World, and then I think the plan has a chance...truly and honestly.


Ah. Yeah, then I agree with you entirely. What I'd like to see is that; missions sent by the churches, not fiddle-faddle and endless meetings. Not sure we'll see that, but maybe if more people clue in to the advantages of sending missionaries.

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Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:46 am
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
....my god...I think we just agreed. :P

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Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:07 pm
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Post Re: Solution to Islam; convert, not nuke.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
....my god...I think we just agreed. :P


What?
No!
RARARARARARARAR DROWN IN VOMIT!

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Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:48 pm
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