My only problem with believing that there is any hope of Snape redeeming himself is that there's not been a single hint of it anywhere. Granted we have circumstancial evidence but there's been no beacon of hope shining through the man's actions and emotions. So, I'm sceptical but we don't have control of the story so who knows but Rowling.

As for why Dumbledore trusted him? You can never say that Dumbledore wasn't an optimistic or trusting soul. Well, you could but you'd be lying. All Snape would have to do is play up to that trait.

When does the benifit of having Snape a doube agent become less than the destruction to the cause of defeating Voldy to put him there? I can understand the absolute need to have him there - completely trusted and ready to help Harry at the end if needed - but if I was Voldemort...I STILL woudln't trust Snape as far as I could Avada Kedavera his ass out of my way.

How much has to be lost by the Order of the Pheonix to keep Snape there? I would say that they could be completely destroyed, and Voldy still wouldn't trust Snape. Simply kill him to eliminate the 'just in case' loose end.

And the fact that nobody in the Order knew about it....if Snape was a double agent....worries me greately. Everyone suddenly realizes that their trust of Snape has been strung on the thread of something that really isn't that solid.

First thing I'd do, if I was in the Pheonix, would be to make it look like we were still in contact with Snape to ensure that he twists a bit. IF Snape is still a double agent, then he gets to get in deeper by saying that it's a ploy. And hell, if not, then there's a chance Snape gets added suspicion placed on him by Voldy or at least the other death eaters. Let the fucker burn. Malfoy be damned....he could have come to Dumbledor himself.

i agree... personally i'm waiting for them to come up with a counter to big green. from how i've seen it work, that'd bea patronustype spell. (to counter the draining lifeforce)

There is no counter to the Avada Kadarva. That's why they use it, and that's why it's an Unforgivable Curse. It's not like it's an easy spell either, according to Barty Crouch. The only counter so far has been with the use of powerful blood magic that requires not only death but love on the part of the desceased. That's how the Avada Kadarva was reversed in Harry's case, and is shown to be the only thing that has been able to stop it. Don't think that Aurors haven't tried everything and the kitchen sink to stop it, it simply cannot be blocked.

Dumbledore didn't die to keep Snape in with the Death Eaters, he died to keep Malfoy safe. I think we can all agree that Dumbledore would do anything for his students. If you notice in the run-up to Dumbledore's death, he was trying to convince Malfoy to go into hiding under the Order's protection, and that his family would be safe as well. Snape staying in good with Voldemort was just a bonus.

Snape could be a double agent for either side at this point, however I tend to believe that he's truly turned on Voldemort after the Potter's death, seeing as how he didn't kill or kidnap (so Voldemort could kill) Harry while fleeing Hogwarts. You really can't explain that away like that. I guess we'll just have to wait until next year to find out (that I'm right). I wish we could put money on this. :-P

On an interesting side note, the people who harp of Harry Potter have been so busy on the Satanism, that they haven't gotten to the interracial dating aspect of it yet. In book #4 Harry and Ron take the Patil sisters to the Yule Ball, Fred Weasley takes Angelina, and Cedric Diggory takes Cho Chang. In book #5 Harry dates Cho. Once they run out of "Harry Potter's the Devil!!" stchick I guess they'll start in on that. ^_^

ARGH! My brain is TRYING to break me. But then again, I'm certain some Yaoi fangirl has already thought of the bright idea:

"Love is the only counter to Avada...why not have a big ORGIEEE!!!"

<koff koff> Okay, I'm better now.

Anyway, I agree Dumbledoor's primary concern was Malfoy. And in that respect, it makes a lot more sense since both Snape and Dumbledor were there to protect their students...even at the risk of their own lives. I'm sure the 'argument' that they had in the woods was likely related to Snape wanting to take the death instead of ol' Albus, and Albus getting mad he'd even consider it.

Still...from the Pheonix's point of view...things must be looking pretty grim. I suspect no quarter will be given and I woulnd't blame them even if ol' Snape is the double agent for good. Too much has been lost to go the path of non-violence.

I finally thought of something that strongly suggest Snape is working against Voldemort: He (tried to) stop Sirius. Even if he hated Sirius, why wouldn't he just let Sirius kill Harry, and then capture him afterwards. That way, he couldn't be held responsible for Harry's death, and he would still get revenge on Sirius by sending him back to Azkaban.

er... i'm kind of confused or forgetful... when did Sirius try to kill Harry?

Remember, in Prisoner O Azkaban, everyone...even Snape...thought that Black was a big Voldy supporter and wanted Harry dead.

As strange as it sounds, I think Snape's personal hatred of Back made him act on the 'side of good'. After all, at that point in time, Voldy wasn't 'back' yet. Even if Snape IS actually 100% a Voldemort supporter, why would he give up his nice, comfy job and new life to join up with Black, when he hated the man, and there would have been no guarantee Voldemort was back to reward a more teamwork-ish solution?

well yeah but he never tried to kill him... he was mostly just defending... the only ting for certain is that Harry really wanted to kill Sirius

But that's just it. Snape could have simply let Sirius kill Harry first, then he would be free to do to Sirius what he would at will, all in the name of avenging (all) the Potter's murderer. But he didn't. He intervened and actually tried to save Harry first.

I think that the 'saving Harry' thing was more of an unfortunate side effect of the situation than anything. Remember that even as Snape was charging to the rescue, he was more interested in having Sirius get a Dementor's kiss than protecting Harry, who he was determined would be getting either detention or expulsion for running around against curfew, I can't remember which he suggested off-hand.

Let's face it, Snape's playing on his team. He's just trying to stay alive and doesn't really care who gets hurt in the process. He's a bit like Mibu's Wolf for those that like Rurouni Kenshin. Somebody's gonna take the fucker out in the last book as the price traitors pay. I hope it's McGonagall or Hagrid myself.

Lady Senie

Just finished reading the book (FINALLY) though in my defense it only actually too k me 2 days with classes to read. Anyway I BET I can make some STARTLING predictions!

So my friend messages me the other day

Have you read the new harry potter book?
I can't beleive he dies!
I knew he'd die eventually, but I can't believe he died already!

to which I respond

NO I HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK YOU STUPID HOE BAG WAIT FOR ME TO ANSWER THE FIRST QUESTION BEFORE YOU START TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

and so I decided It would be...this thread says spoilers right? ok, so I decided it would be Dumbledore who died.
And low and behold I was right.
God I hate her.

*Edit* So all of these opinions have been stated previously. Oh well. Consider these my statements of agreement then.*
Anyone else think dumbledore ordered snape to kill him?
I see Snape being key to harry beating voldemort in book 7.
RIP Albus Dumbledore, you were the man.

No offense, but perhaps you should go back and read some of the rather voluminous posts in this thread...

I so pissed off Hooze by telling her Hermione died. She thought I was serious for a bit there...was going to kill me in some kind of impressive way, I'm certain.

Better Hermione then Albus "The Man" Dumbledore. At least all of Wizard-dom wouldn't be screwed over by her death.

You're kidding...right?

HOW many plans has she come up with that saved their asses? HOW many times has she been the voice of reason? Harry doesn't need 1 nudge every 4 chapters...he need a babysitter half the time.

Besides, Hermione is the admitted self-insert of the author. Deux Ex Machina anyone?

Dumbledor may have worked on grander scales, but both are immediately important to everything Mr. Potter has done.

Kill off Ron. He's annoying.

If you kill off Ron, who would Hermione fuck?

Besides, he is Harry's best friend and it's Ron's position as Harry's pseudo-brother, as well as Ron's family, that keeps Harry grounded. If it weren't for the Weaselys, Harry probably would have become another Voldemort. That's how I know Harry and Ginny were going to get together; it would allow Harry to become a legal part of the Weasely family.

I'll second killing off Ron but

To harry certainly Hermione is important but on a global scale we've suddenly lost the only wizard Voldemort was afraid of.

I'd be cool with offing Neville too. I know he's meant to be annoying but... he's just *too* annoying.

On a side note, I could have done without the gratuitous Snogging. Ok, he's more adult now. We get it.

Then again 16 years olds in real life get up to worse.

Yeah, and now Ron can die. ^_^ No problem!

The ONLY times Hermione has failed at being right, or having the best idea all along seem to be when Dumbledor is either equally wrong/in the dark, or when Harry is being such an emo-kid that she doesn't listen to him.

Haven't actually read HBP yet, but;

SPOILER FOR BOOK 7

Snape dies.

Good riddance. Yes, I freely admit I have a hate-on for Snape. He killed the coolest wizard in the damn series! Grr!

As for Hermione dying, I think she's gonna be essential to the final 'Potter vs. Voldermort' throwdown. I'm sorry, but she's the brains of the whole damn operation. If she dies before cracking the 'case' ie. the whole getting frozen by the snake but not before having figured out all the answers and written them down for the boys already in Chamber of Secrets, Harry's gonna die. With pain. Ron can go as angst fuel for Harry (I will avenge you), but not Hermione. She's too central to the plot.

On a different note, what's up with Peeves? I know that Dumbledore did nothing without a reason, and I'm sure that Peeves is more than just comic relief at this point.

And leave Neville alone. Poor kid's parents don't even KNOW him and he's been raised by an overbearing grandmother that's doing her best to turn him into the man her son was. I'd be a little messed up too.

Lady Senie

my GOD fiss. do you know what you discovered? what year did the harry potter series come out. because at that same time emo started coming out. DEAR LORD!!! AHHHHH, it came from harry potter!

CURSES![/b]

I don't know, Doyle. Harry was okay until book 5. That's when Rowling turned him into an angst bitch.

"I'm so goth I shit bats" kids have always been around. They've just had more press lately with their latest icon, Harry Potter.

Lady Senie

Point for Senie there. El Gotho's have been populating around my city for years prior to that. went to grade one with one...

though the term emo-kid did become more popular with the rise of lord hairy potty and the toletries of despair.

Neville - He's there as counter-point to Harry. Personally, I think Neville and Luna are going to play big parts in the last book. Rowling has spent too much time comparing Neville with Harry, and has spent too much character development on him, slowly strengthening him to just let him fade away. Since Luna and Neville are now dating, it's likely Luna will get dragged into somehow, plus have something odd come about to explain why she acts so weird (besides seeing her mother die and all).

Peeves - I think Dumbledore is one of those people who both values humor, and likes a bit more spice in life.

Harry The Emo-Bitch - Harry started getting angsty in book 5 because Rowling started killing people at the end of book 4. You do have to admit, though, the whole world really was against Harry (at least the wizarding part of it). So he had some reason to be Emo-ish.