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 VA Tech shoot: Lessons Learned 
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Chibi-Czar
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Drax.... I am stunned... That was fucking wonderful... You looked at it from a strategical mindset, and could see shit I wasnt even looking for... (guess thats why I suck at chess so badly, never planning things out)

And I gotta say... I do agree with the whole Batman thing... subdue and hurt (only a little... sometimes) kill ONLY if called for...

Yeah, several people could be cold-blooded killers, and I am one of them... but the one thing that prevents me from acting as such, is this... MORELS...

I have my honor-code to live by... and yeah my brain is about 12 kinds of screwy... and I have anger issues... but it would take some SERIOUS brain malfunction for me to do ANYTHING like that... but if it ever happens... take me out... thats my prevention right there... if I go crazy and wanna kill, something evil and bad has happened, and I probably dont want to live anymore anyway...

But yeah, Drax, I agree with you whole heartedly... hopefully we can take out a fucked off killer someday together! You plan, I excute! ^-^ j/k

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Mon May 07, 2007 1:51 am
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NekoChan wrote:
Drax.... I am stunned... That was fucking wonderful... You looked at it from a strategical mindset, and could see shit I wasnt even looking for... (guess thats why I suck at chess so badly, never planning things out)


Wow. Thank you.

I would like to add an addendum to what I said I would do in that situation, that being that what I said is what I would like to do in that situation but when the real thing comes one never knows how they will truly react to the fear, chaos, and death around them.


Mon May 07, 2007 2:56 am
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I second the Draxel-Rules flag and raise you a Huzzah.

As for the mental and physical training idea...the will is there, but the schedule is weak. Look at how many companies, highschools, churches and clubs are beginning to bring in people who teach these things. My company spent half a million bucks to get a motivational speaker in to speak to my department and give us advice. Schools are teaching the little miss pedo-victims basic self defense classes, or making available teachers who can. The problem is always the participation of the person. If each of us were given the chance to attend a FREE Taijitsu class, a hand-gun safety course, and a Emotional Health seminar...well, sure, we'd all probably sign up. But that's a lot of time to take out of your day/week/month for someone who, as Drax says, would probably only do it AFTER there was a shooting/accident/explosion in their life.

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Mon May 07, 2007 2:37 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Christopher Fiss wrote:
I second the Draxel-Rules flag and raise you a Huzzah.


HUZZAH!

You are right Fissy, most people figure that they'll NEVER need something like that... and granted... 70-80% of them wont... but that small percent that will... That alone is worth the cost of getting people to teach them...

Granted, I was raised in Texas, and could handle a gun from day one (aim, fire, and reload bitch...) I am also a decent hand to hand fighter... if you have ever lived in Houston, its a must... and I picked up archery and sword play because I wanted to...

Its always been my belief to be prepared for ANYTHING... cause ya never know what could happen.

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Mon May 07, 2007 3:23 pm
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Flags and HUZZAHs thirded. Well-thought-out, Drax.
DraxelBethlehem wrote:
However, and this is why I quoted Doyle at the beginning of this, I wouldn't kill him unless I had to. Call it my fandom of Batman, but i wouldn't want either to let my anger and fear get the better of me to the point that I killed him or find that I had stooped to his level. I'd want him caught, tried, and convicted. Of course, if he was hurt, I wouldn't mind smiling to that either.

However, that's no reason for kid gloves in such a situation. If I had to drop him and make him worm meat, I wouldn't hesitate or waste time.
Don't misunderstand me - I'm not preaching going all Conan the Barbarian on him. What I was concerned about was going in too lightly - "not wanting to hurt him" overriding your own safety. You use the amount of force necessary to stop him from killing anybody else. If that means he dies, then that's what it means. If, OTOH, he just ends up with a broken arm, that's fine, too. Point is, doing what's needful.

Other issues: it is indeed a bear to find the time, money, and effort to train. And very few people are going to be able to take a couple of months touring defense schools. I maintain, however, that you can self-train to surprisingly good effect, if you do good research...

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Mon May 07, 2007 5:01 pm
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Here's a question, very relivant to VA, and I think useful and important enough that it could save lives in dozens of situations:

How many people who have attended Post Secondary education remember there ever being a fire-drill?

Seriously. How many buildings are unintentional death-traps simply because people don't know how to get out? If you hear gunfire or an explosion, do you think most people will stop to read the "every 3 or 4 hallways" posted evacuation notices? Do teachers get the training and can they effectively lead a class away from a doomed area?

This might be something to bring up. General evacuation is a damn good thing in most cases. Even if there's no fire, that means the cops don't have to worry about as many Helpless Victims clogging up the halls when they go in to stop Ye Ol' Terrorist or School Shooter.

The fact that Fire Drills and the like have fallen out of style for most institutions over Grade 8 worries me. It's not that people don't know "how not to walk into a burning room". It's that they don't know how to do it when there are 30 other people running for the same door, and the instructor has no control over the situation.

This might be a realistic place we can start to put the "Be Prepared" thing back into practice. Thoughts?

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Tue May 08, 2007 11:06 am
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I can remember fire drills at my high school, up into Grade 11 actually. That could also be due to the close proximity to the military base, emergency response time was very quick. The EMT's for St. John's Hospital in Courtenay BC were trained in their response time by the military and many soldiers that had retired entered the emergency response teams to bolster their ranks.

The military provided the evacuation training for teachers and students free of charge which I found great. If the training is there and available it should be made mandatory. (there's my bias as a fire fighter's son shining through :P) If the schools can't fit it into their budget then they should be looking to either subsidized training from St. John's Ambulance (or the Red Cross for you yanks) or look to their local Emergency Response teams to provide training.

That's just my dos pesos, feel free to pick apart my thoughts quote by quote to see where I was wrong. :)

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Tue May 08, 2007 1:06 pm
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Drills sound like a winner to me. We could stand to push First Aid / CPR training a little harder than they seem to do these days, as well.

(FWIW, when I was in college, we generally got "fire drills" every Saturday about 2 AM. There was always at least one drunken asshole who'd come in from his night of partying and yank a pull-box alarm... :roll: ]

A downside to general evacuation was shown in the Jonesboro, Arkansas mass shooting. Two young perpetrators rang the fire alarm and shot kids when they evacuated the building. OTOH, most lockdown plans are drawn up on the assumption that the shooter or shooters are not inside the innermost perimeter - and don't offer much in the way of contingencies when the shooter is there with you... Policy reviews are in order all around, from mental health support, to emergency plans, to extracurricular programs for safety-type courses - and they need to be written by somebody other than lawyers looking to cover their asses from lawsuits. The only issues I see are little-to-no supply push, little-to-no demand pull, and almost no support for budgeting.

How to motivate parents, school boards, university regents, and others? I'm not sure. Certainly, there's one helluva lot of complacency and denial to overcome. Somebody who's better at salesmanship than I am would have to take point. Any thoughts?

..........

Somebody is inevitably going to bring this up, so I might as well get rid of it. For those of you who are fortunate enough to live in jurisdictions that issue concealed weapons permits, well and good. But I'm not especially enthused about the idea of throwing the gates open to anybody to carry weapons on-campus. The circumstances and environment are rather more demanding than carrying out on the street, and the risks of error, misadventure, and bad luck seem to me to outweigh the potential advantage of immediate response to attack (sorry, fellow gun-nuts, but I've met damned few students and teachers I'd trust to know which end of it the bang comes out of, let alone appreciate the seriousness of the responsibility, and the consequences of a mistake).

OTOH, I don't really see too much of a problem with teachers going armed under limited conditions. It'd have to be something along the lines of the Armed Pilots program the Air Marshals set up. I. e., you complete a background check, testing, and training program, probably run by your local Sheriff's Office, and if you meet stringent standards, you're classed as a reserve deputy. At least, thus far, I haven't heard of a pilot being part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Major obstacles are complacency and denial again, as outlined above.

Assuming the program is put in place as outlined, and tightly monitored to ensure standards are kept up, then under those limited conditions, yes, I'm endorsing the notion. Other than that, I'm not convinced... feel free to rebut.

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Tue May 08, 2007 6:21 pm
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With Jonesboro, I agree, this is a pretty hard thing to overcome... still, an evac drill would get kids lined up...say in classrooms first, ready to react, alert and with the teacher explaining critical information BEFORE they step out into the hall - ideally, yes, but not an unreasonable idea, which again is why I'm thinking the fire-drill has merit. Also, as most of us grew up with them, they're something easy to ease back into daily life and something that most people will participate in instead of blowing off.

Now, not to bring up the whole "Teachers with Guns" flamewar again, but armed or not, I don't see it being unreasonable...especially when protecting younger kids, for teachers to exit the rooms first and check the path. They see two kids off to the side, then they can address that threat without having 30 kids underfoot.

Of course...we're talking a shitstorm immediately following the teachers getting shot...but that's sadly going to happen anyway...and the shots might give the kids left in the classroom a chance to prepare.

This is all very grim, and not nearly a fool-proof, save-everyone solution. Sadly, unless we get anti-balistic foam-dispensers lining the halls, I don't see a perfect end in sight.

If teachers/instructors/etc have guns...even a select, trained portion (in fact, I would be MORE comfortable with that than just handing them out) I would almost say we have more options then.

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Tue May 08, 2007 11:27 pm
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I guess the college I went to was different, we had like monthly fire/disaster drills... and they offered free self defense classes (they counted as a class credit, but you didnt have to pay for them) I took those classes before and after my pregnancy, and they were badass-ness... they taught you how to use your surroundings to your advantage... very handy stuff to know. ^-^

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Wed May 09, 2007 8:42 pm
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My college also had required fire drills every month, along with the random-buring-popcorn-at-4am-on-the-day-before-finals alarms. ROTC hosted basic self defense courses during their PT, no charge, no committment.

And I can certainly agree that firearms running rampant around a school in the hands of mostly immature students is a bad idea. But why not also allow the adult (18+) students to try for reserve deputy status, at an even stricter standard than the teachers? There are plenty of people who are stable enough to do so responsibly, with proper supervision. Both students and staff could carry unloaded and safety-locked sidearms with clips stored in the teacher's desk that would take a nominal amount of time to ready, but could still be brought to bear in an emergency.

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Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm
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Nate, I LOVE that idea... let me expand on it, just a tad...

Make the class to be able to carry one of those firearms, HARD... and I mean hard enough to teach the importance of gun safety... plus, make pepper spray and the like available to all students and teachers (some people wont carry guns for personal or religious reasons), and again, teach the importance of WHEN and WHERE to use it...

Again, stuff like that would not work in an elementary school, and possibly not even at a middle school (Jr. High to some) but High School level, and College level, yea it would work...

As for planning for the worst at a school of children and pre-teens... I dunno what would be best... but I'll think on it, and post some ideas later on

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Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 pm
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It's called a conceal carry course, just you're suggesting a variant for being on campus.

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Fri May 11, 2007 9:27 pm
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admiraltigerclaw wrote:
It's called a conceal carry course, just you're suggesting a variant for being on campus.


*holds up hand* I... damnit... *glares at ATC* no cupcake for you now... >.>

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Fri May 11, 2007 10:06 pm
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*Munch.* What, this one?

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Fri May 11, 2007 10:07 pm
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*glares and pouts* HE ATE MY CUPCAKE! FIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! HE ATE MY CUPCAKE!

So very very off topic we are... haha oh well... there any other areas of this discussion to explore?

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Fri May 11, 2007 11:17 pm
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NekoChan wrote:
So very very off topic we are... haha oh well... there any other areas of this discussion to explore?
Not much. I was thinking 120 - 160 hours of training time for your reserve deputies, with instruction in First Aid & CPR, Defensive Tactics (read, "hand-to-hand"), Non-lethal and Less-lethal (pepper spray, stun guns, etc), Firearms (heavy on the shoot/don't shoot scenario training), Legal Issues... That's a notional syllabus, and it could do with some tweaking, but if somebody wants to sum up the key points, go for it.

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Sat May 12, 2007 8:40 am
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Michael J Doyle wrote:
Not much.


I wanna open this up for... what to do in the event of a Jr. High, or Elementary school situation... we've pretty muchly figured out what to do on HS and College levels... but what do you do when you have 30 crying kids? Or when you have 30 kids that think they are 10 feet tall and bullet proof?

Ok, granted, I havent been in Jr. High or lower in like... almost 10 years... so I have no clue what the desks are made of these days... but the ones they had when I was there... practically bullet proof... the best course of action would be a duck and cover for the younger children, using their desks for a sort of shield against gun fire.

The older students (like age 10 and up) could be armed with pepper spray (again with the class to teach them when and where to use it), along with basic self-defense techniques to protect themselves.

Yes, I hope to whatever Higher Power there is that something like VA NEVER EVER happens to a Jr. High or Elementary, I would rather be prepared and never need it, than to not be prepared and need it...

As we have all agreed on so far, prevention and preparation are the key elements in this.

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Sun May 13, 2007 12:48 pm
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Wood and bulletproof do not belong together in the same area of concept.
If the rounds being fired have any decent punch to them, desks are worthless. (I'm thinking the heavier stuff, like rifle rounds.)
Granted of course, most people going on a shooting spree in a middle school or earlier gradeschool aren't going to be packing much in the way of REAL firepower.

Then again, I don't hear of too many middle/gradeschool shootouts. Most children just aren't "unstable enough" yet. And people are more alert at those levels because they're more watchful of the students well being.

However, there should allways be an armed officer plus some deputized teachers with arms working there.


Weird situation...

One of these days, we'll see an event where a student pulls out a gun in class to go on a rampage, and gets shot as he leaves his desk by a teacher who was carrying a concealed weapon he shouldn't have had on campus. They're both wrong...

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Sun May 13, 2007 1:08 pm
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Well, I was talking about the heavy metal desks they had back in my day (oh god I feel old now)

And yeah I sadly agree with what you said about the student going nuts, and a teacher having a gun under the desk that they shouldnt have... both would be wrong, very wrong.

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Sun May 13, 2007 2:55 pm
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Yeah... but which one's more wrong? :?

The only student - initated mass murder at grade-school or junior high level that I can think of off the top of my head of is Jonesboro. That was the one I referenced earlier, where the two subjects rang the fire alarm and shot students and teachers as they evacuated. The remaining shootings, IIRC, are intruder takeovers, either lone nutters like Nickel Mines, PA, or terrorist actions, like Beslan, Russia. Different type of threat from the high school and college incidents we've seen thus far.

In either case, lock down, then duck and cover, is probably the worst thing to have your kids do - the intruder is almost certainly going to have heavier firepower than a desk is going to withstand, and it just fixes the kids in place as targets for him. Barricade the doors between you and the intruder, if possible, then get the hell out. One possible solution for barricade is the "crash gate" - heavy steel gates that close off hallways to keep an intruder from moving through the building. The drawback is that it traps anybody on the wrong side of the crash gate in with the intruder. Classroom doors sturdy enough to resist attack, and windows the students can get through might be a better approach. The school resource officers and/or (hypothetical) deputized teachers will have to be Horatius at the Bridge, and may very well die before the cavalry can get there - but, if you asked, they'd probably say better them than the children in their care. (And can we, once and for all, get rid of the stupid notion that some school administrators have that sworn officers should be disarmed before they take up SRO duty?)

On that note, I've just finished John Giduck's Terror at Beslan. That incident was even worse than I'd heard. The shooting started when one of the terrorists guarding the hostages screwed up and accidentally set off a boobytrap. The rest of them panicked and started executing hostages, so the Russian Spetznaz teams had to do a hasty assault - no time to stage, no time to even call for the contingency plan, just charge. The first team was decimated by a daisy chain of improvised Claymore mines. The second team assaulted into a firesack ambush of RPK machine guns (midway between a SAW and an M60). When the third team made entry, the terrorists fired off the bombs they'd planted among the hostages, then got into the streets for a running firefight with the security forces.

We are frighteningly vulnerable. Case-in-point: what would have happened if the idiots that wanted to assault Fort Dix had decided to take over an elementary school instead? By the time the first cops would have arrived in enough strength to do a hasty assault, they'd've slaughtered dozens - and no guarantee that a hasty assault would work any better for New Jersey coppers than it did for Russian commandoes. God help us if it happens here, because we ain't ready for it.

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Sun May 13, 2007 7:43 pm
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All police teams should have a high power sniper in them.... equiped with a thermal optic scope. This way, when they have the go ahead... a fifty cal-sniper round does not believe in walls.

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Sun May 13, 2007 11:59 pm
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Only in the movies. :? Standard "brick and whatever" walls schools are made out of have plenty of...well, besides solid brick...metal, pipes, plastics, insulation and tubing.

It isn't a mater of shoot the wall until bullets get through...it's a question of if the bullet will break into 30 pieces and kill 3 kids instead of the Shooter you were hoping for.

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Mon May 14, 2007 1:08 am
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This is NOT a way to teach kids...

Wow... just wow... thats all I can to the stupidity of THAT.

I wont go and discuss what went wrong with that experiment... just yet anyway...

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Mon May 14, 2007 8:32 am
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Okay, taking the commentary seriatem:

Leaving aside bullet deflection and fragmentation(sure, it'll take the pipe out, but even Cal 50 will deflect if it interdicts a solid iron standpipe), there remains the problem that thermal does not permit positive target ID (You see a person with long object in his hands. You shoot - did you take out a tango, one of your own assaultmen - or a janitor who armed himself with a broomstick?)

Overriding that issue is a threefold one. First, at about $10,000 US a whack, before you add in optics, ammo, etc, how many XM107 Barrett Cal 50 rifles can your average police agency afford to buy? Second, how many suitable sniper, sharpshooter, and designated marksman candidates do you think your average police agency has in its ranks (bear in mind that about fifty to sixty percent of military sniper candidates bilge out of the program - and that's after prescreening has weeded out the grossly unsuitable applicants. Third, where are you going to set up the five or six teams you'd need to thoroughly cover even a medium school? Pfaugh. Saying, "My snipers take the tangos out," may be classed as beyond the wishful-thinking side of optimism. :roll:

--------------------

As to the do-it-yourself school of active shooter drills... I'd start with "fuckheads" and go south from there.....

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Mon May 14, 2007 9:17 am
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