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 VA Tech shoot: Lessons Learned 
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Chibi-Czar
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Yeah, since I know next to nothing about snipers... I cant put it much more than, "Can I play with the shiny?" and probably blow someone's head off should the sniper be dumb enough to hand that thing to me...

And yeah.. .the active shooter drill, not a wise idea... which is kind of funny when it happened... trying to decide a good course of action for the younger students... well at least now we know what NOT to do for them...

Any other ideas?

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Mon May 14, 2007 12:15 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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I call the bullet, SCADUCTS.

A 'Special CAse Depleted Uranium Core Tungsten Shell'. You won't have to worry about it fragmenting when it cuts through iron like a hot knife through butter. :twisted:

Just, use some caution when handling and storing the rounds. It's not like you'll need the active rounds very often. And after the shot, be sure to locate and clean up after the round.

Logistics asside. I'd be more concerned about overpenetration. You shoot the guy, and your shot goes through someone's house down the street, killing the cat. But that can be accounted for. This is a case where the guy WILL kill as many as possible, if you don't kill him first. I'm willing to risk a janitor somehow being mistaken for the gunman on my thermal optics if it keeps that gunman from taking down twenty more children while I 'play it safe'.

Besides, by the time the sniper arrives and sets up, the gunman is probably going to be the only one on the thermals that would show as the possible target.

Knowledge is power though, so the sniper team would get as much info as possible before taking the shot.

Who knows... maybe if the shot misses harmlessly, but blows a f*ckin' hole in the wall. The gunman might realize that there's no safe spot and either give up or blow his own brain out right there, saving us the trouble of sticking him in prison and feeding his ass with our tax dollars.

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Mon May 14, 2007 5:29 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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And that's the ultimate problem. Time's working against you, because the bad guy is already killing the kids. If it's a takeover, they're stringing boobytraps, rigging charges, bunkering up, etc. Scratch teams aren't a perfect solution, but the shooter at VA Tech ate his gun when he heard the troops shotgun-breach the door. At the least, in a takeover, the teams can get as far forward as they can and keep the bad guys confined to one area until SWAT gets there.

-------

And you can't really call it a drill - no emergency response came into play, even on an exercise level. This was BS, pure and simple, and all it accomplished was scaring the hell out of a bunch of kids. One hopes they will become former teachers, and quickly

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Mon May 14, 2007 7:19 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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From what I have heard, most of the teachers were suspended... I'm not sure what all happened to them... but I hope they help pay for the theraphy those kids are gunna need when they grow up...

but in the words of my sister... "I say the stupid people of the world should be rounded up and shot... just to get their genes out of the pool..."

My sister is a tad crazy...

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Mon May 14, 2007 8:35 pm
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admiraltigerclaw wrote:
A 'Special CAse Depleted Uranium Core Tungsten Shell'.


ATC, please, I know it sounds atomic, but Depleted Uranium is just that...Depleted.

Yes, it's a heavy, toxic metal, but it doesn't need hazmat to clean up. Maybe if you're a family of gerbils you'll get cancer in a few weeks, but otherwise, unless the kids find pieces of the bullet and start eating it, it's not a big deal.

As for its effectiveness, it's only relying on density to stay together and for accuracy. A flimsy brick wall and some standard grade iron...while it won't stop the bullet...still can shatter or change its trajectory enough to miss.

You'd have better luck with forged rounds coated in Teflon. No stick, no mess. :P

Sorry about the skewed tangent...but it IS "War and Peace"...

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Tue May 15, 2007 1:20 pm
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Actually, Uranium has a half-life of more than four billion years. Even then, it alpha-decays. As long as you wear clothes, the rads can't touch most of you. Even if you were naked, at most you could get from alpha rads is a bad sunburn (sunburns are radiation burns, FYI). If it is ignited though, it will burn as it's a flammable metal. If you inhale the fumes, you can get heavy metal poisoning or lung cancer from it.

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Tue May 15, 2007 4:48 pm
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Moot point. No LE agency is ever going to authorize anything that triggers the kneejerk reaction, ZOMG NUKESZ!!!11!"

[/digression]

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Tue May 15, 2007 6:47 pm
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Moot yes, but not for NUKESZ. DU rounds are not deployed for their accuracy, nor their "Destroying of Worlds" in a nuclear method. They're designed to peirce tank armor and heavy, dumb things. Sniping is probably the last useful application. I'm tired of people thinking they're some magical Nuke Bullet when really...they're employed because Uranium is heavy and the US has a lot of it that's relitively safe to pump into the bad guys

Now, adding Tungst coating IS a very good idea, and it would probably make the bullets not a complete waste of time in a sniping environment by ensuring they don't leave too many fragments behind in walls, people, tanks...etc...that they go through.

However, sniping is not about a punch to the gut. Its a knife to the eye.

I'd put all that hard earned tax-payer money into a non-lethal system deployable quickly and effectively in a hostile environment. Nothing says "PW0WN3D" like the bad guy getting fucked by sound waves, foam or electricity. Not only do "accidental casualties" like the poor Janitor everyone seems willing to sacrifice become less of an issue (pacemaker maybe goes off when the tasers hit?) but then the fucker gets to stand trial, and name accomplises or suppliers.

Using anti-tank rounds in sniper rifles seems a bit...WTF.

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Tue May 15, 2007 7:31 pm
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Christopher Fiss wrote:
Moot yes, but not for NUKESZ. DU rounds are not deployed for their accuracy, nor their "Destroying of Worlds" in a nuclear method. They're designed to peirce tank armor and heavy, dumb things. Sniping is probably the last useful application. I'm tired of people thinking they're some magical Nuke Bullet when really...they're employed because Uranium is heavy and the US has a lot of it that's relitively safe to pump into the bad guys
At last! Somebody whut actually DID the homework!!! (Not to be overly contemptuous, but... Tell me again, kids, precisely WHO is it on this board who simultaneously holds a primary MOS of Marine Corps Tanker; a secondary MOS Ordnanceman; and award of the Combat Action Ribbon? (For the uninformed: US Army = CIB; Bundeswehr = Close Combat Badge.)

None of which takes away from the sad fact that the public goes into spastic fits whenever they hear a word associated with nuclear weapons or nuclear power. Mayors are elected by the public; Chiefs-of-Police are appointed by the Mayor. No Chief is going to sign off on anything that might get the Mayor voted out...
Quote:
Now, adding Tungst coating IS a very good idea, and it would probably make the bullets not a complete waste of time in a sniping environment by ensuring they don't leave too many fragments behind in walls, people, tanks...etc...that they go through.

However, sniping is not about a punch to the gut. Its a knife to the eye.
Bravo Zulu. In the LE arena, Sniping is economy-of-force: turn off the bad guy before he can do anything to the innocents - in the quickest and least destructive way possible (if you don't agree, compare a sniper vs an assault team).

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I'd put all that hard earned tax-payer money into a non-lethal system deployable quickly and effectively in a hostile environment. Nothing says "PW0WN3D" like the bad guy getting fucked by sound waves, foam or electricity. Not only do "accidental casualties" like the poor Janitor everyone seems willing to sacrifice become less of an issue (pacemaker maybe goes off when the tasers hit?) but then the fucker gets to stand trial, and name accomplises or suppliers.
Start with R&D to find a system that truly is rapid-deployable and immediately incapacitating, and I'm yours. So far, the advertisers haven't quite delivered on the "works as advertised" part. BTW, what do you mean, "Everyone seems willing to sacrifice" - IIRC, I'm the one who brought up the janitor in my objections to the proposed course-of-action eight or nine posts ago... :evil:

In ANY event, since the logistic issues of equipping every copshop with a Hathcock caliber sniper team is impossible, and ultimately, SWAT response is totally irrelevant to the whole point of this thread (To wi:t, a) personal survival in the face of a mass-murder incident at you school or office, then only secondarily b) the ideas and items voters should lobby their city councils for, in preparation for a mass=murder scenario) I rule the whole DU Cal 50 sniper round discussion out-of-order, and request and require that we re-focus on the original topic.

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

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Tue May 15, 2007 11:35 pm
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So we cant blow the bad guys up with nukes? well POO *sulks*

Granted... what exactly HAVE we covered in this thing so far? This thread amuses me... so I am keeping it alive... ^-^

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Thu May 17, 2007 6:25 pm
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Hmm...

*scans thread*

1) Prevention and the importance of giving a shit about people

2) "Will to live" and survival mindset

3) Situational awareness and how to pay attention to what's going on around you

4) "Crisis rehearsal" and contingency planning

5) Lobbying to re-emphasize response drills, write realistic policies,

6) Training issues

7) Some mistakes to avoid

... with excursions into silliness here and there :wink:

What are some good skillsets you'd like to have on tap for this sort of thing? We kinda brushed by it in the "armed teacher" excursion, but let's give it some focus. Your thoughts?

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Thu May 17, 2007 6:52 pm
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Skillsets hmm?

Hand to hand combat (defensive techniques to disarm an opponent)
Basic firearm skills (we dont need Rambos teaching at the schools... but a decent shot is needed)
Erm... whats it called when you have the person that talks to the crazy person with the gun, trying to talk them down? They need that skill
First aid skills to help those who are injured

Umm... I think that is all I can think of...

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Thu May 17, 2007 7:07 pm
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Oh, in the news:

Missouri broadens "Castle Law" but strengthens Mental Health reporting to firearms background checks

And, I'm not particularly enthusiastic about this, but...

South Carolina authorizing CCW permit holders to go to school

Granting the background checks, training, etc you have to complete before you even get a permit, my reservations as I stated them before still stand - it's a more restrictive environment, and more demanding of good judgement...


Anyway, my original call for proposed skillsets is still open. Anybody?

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Thu May 17, 2007 7:08 pm
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Michael J Doyle wrote:
Your thoughts?


Gir: MINDLESS VIOLENCE!



O_o

Okay... just ignore Gir.

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Thu May 17, 2007 7:11 pm
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*points to post before yours* Silly Doyle...

And I am glad I dont live in Missouri... cause they would never let me have a gun (granted, yes I have a license to carry one, I dont own one... not fond of the damn things, too noisy)

I understand the reasoning behind that law... how many mass murderers have had previous mental health issues?

"To prevent school shootings, some South Carolina legislators want more guns on campuses." How many levels of wrong is that?

Whats to say a group of kids overpower said gun-carrying adult? What then? I can see ONE cocky adult going to a college campus, trying to impress a girl, shows his gun... plays with it... and BAM, blows her head off accidentally... Accidents happen people... I see this as a BAD idea on so many levels...

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Thu May 17, 2007 7:17 pm
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*points to one-minute time difference in posts* So, I didn't consider touch-typing a critical skillset when I was in school. So sue me.

Hmm... sounds like you're talking:

Communications skill-building.
First aid
Hand-to-hand and CQC weapons
Disaster preparedness

Sounds like we're on the same page.

And no need to rehash my own doubts about the SC law. But, playing Devil's Advocate for a minute, I'm compelled to admit that similar predictions of disaster have accompanied all the general CCW laws that've been passed - and they haven't materialized. And we've already had our noses rubbed in the fact that "Gun Free Zone" = "Victim Rich Environment" OTOH, on a personal level, I carried a gun day-in day-out for 18 years, but that was with a ten week Academy, plus annual refresher training, plus additional coaching and informal practice on my own time and money... Cross your fingers and hope for the best on this law. It might work, but I can't claim to be enthused about it.

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Thu May 17, 2007 7:49 pm
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Haha, so my ability to type in the dark and by feel at an alarming rate is one of my many skills... plus the hyper-annoyance factor...

I personally dont like the laws surrounding carrying a gun around... they are too lax... if it was say a five week course, with a refresher every 6 months (which would be a one week course) then I would feel a little better about it...

But I mean, TX laws about gun control... are laughable, we've all made jokes about it.. and for good reason... they basically dont exist, other than some minor background checking... and I think a 72 hour waiting period...

Yeeaaahhhh... and we all wonder how Dick Cheny got away with shotting someone in Crawford, TX... *rolls eyes*

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Thu May 17, 2007 8:49 pm
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I personally would recommend students, teachers/etc take WHMIS training. Not only would people be more aware about hazardous chemicals, but there would be a certain degree of ability in recognizing when a student is hoarding chemicals to make nasty things.

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Fri May 18, 2007 8:11 am
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<stupid blonde girl moment>
WHMIS? Is like a weenie dog? cause those are SO cute!
</stupid blonde girl moment>

WHA?

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Fri May 18, 2007 8:28 am
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Sorry, my bad:

WHMIS: Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System

Basically, it's responsible for the standard "Corrosive" and "Do not Eat" stickers on stuff, only specifically designed for a work environment (schools/universities being a BIG part of "work environment", btw) so people can avoid bad mixes, spills and harmful effects from a wide range of materiels like gasoline or sodium, biohazard stuff like human blood, and all the way up to and partially including radioactive materials.

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Fri May 18, 2007 9:41 am
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oooooooooooooh....

We call it something else in the state Fiss... what its called is escaping me right now... but yeah... a course in that shit would be nice... cause then you would be able to detect students trying to make explosives...

K... I had some other point to make... and the idea just went away... I HATE that! >.<

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Fri May 18, 2007 10:17 am
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We call it the Hazard Communication Standards - the regulations are available through http://www.osha.gov but I had trouble finding the appropriate guidebooks. See also The US Department of Transportation's Emergency Response Guide and the Wikipedia entry for theNFPA 704 standard warning sign

Some more recommended reading (ink-on-paper). These have the On-My-Bookshelf Endorsement:

Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion by George Thompson. How to speak with people without Athlete's Tongue.

The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals that Protect Us from Violence and Fear Less:Real Truth about Risk, Safety, and Security in a Time of Terrorism by Gavin de Becker. How to listen to that little voice that tells you something bad is about to happen.

Defensive Living: Preserving Your Personal Safety through Awareness, Attitude, and Armed Action by Ed Lovette and Dave Spaulding. The nice thing is, Lovette and Spaulding don't actually start talking guns until after they've covered mindset, situational awareness, evasion, and the less violent options.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by LtCol Dave Grossman; and On Combat by LtCol Dave Grossman and Loren W. Christensen. These are already landmarks in the military and LE communities for Grossman's insights into the psychology of violence.

AMA Handbook of First Aid and Emergemcy Care; Red Cross First Aid and Safety Handbook; and, for those inclined to dig more deeply, some of the EMT texts and study guides like Mosby's Recognized, tested, and accredited first aid references. (I would approach the esoteric stuff with caution, and view with suspicion the Paladin Press stuff.)

Anybody got other resources to add?

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"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

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Fri May 18, 2007 7:46 pm
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Dude, you're a goldmine. 8)

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Sat May 19, 2007 2:49 am
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He IS? O.o

*starts randomly poking Doyle, looking for gold* what button do I push to make the gold come out? .... Not THAT kind of gold... EWW

-_- I totally set myself up for that one...

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Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 am
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*hops backwards from NekoChan before she can start gold-mining, points over shoulder to strawberry-blonde Amazon tapping nightstick in hand* You might wanna check in with Mrs. Doyle before you start poking around without permission, kiddo...

An-n-n-yway, Call for additional study resources remains outstanding. Also, for other topics we might have overlooked...

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Mon May 21, 2007 7:30 pm
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