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 VA Tech shoot: Lessons Learned 
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Chibi-Czar
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kiddo? *rolls eyes*

Can I poke her instead? I think I might need a bit of disciplining... whoa.. my freak gauge just went up...

Erm ok... We've covered what steps to take to prevent, what do prepare for (on some levels... I still think we should cover more ideas about elementary and Jr. High level attacks) and different things that higher ups should know in case of this...

How about what to teach the kids in the event of something like this happening... we've sort of touched on it, but I wanna go more in depth... I just cant think of anything...

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Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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[aside] I don't think she's into that - we're both pretty conventional.... [/aside]

The basic game plan remains the same in all events - intervention and interdiction to prevent the shooter from getting access; failing that, contain and isolate the shooter from his targets, and get the kids the hell away, with worst case, immediate counterassault. How to reframe it into a viable course of action that elementary schoolchildren can do is a bit stickier. I'll confess that I'm not sure how to go about that one myself. Anybody got some suggestions on translating this into something a third-grader can reliably do?

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Tue May 22, 2007 3:58 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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[aside] To each his own... lol[/aside]

I really havent a clue on what younger kids could do... and I mean... I would hate for the teachers to be the ones to sacrifice themselves for the kids... but it might be the only viable option... unless someone, anyone has some sort of idea...

Slightly off topic... I actually pitched some of these ideas at my local high school, and they are all for trying it out, and if it works, to some degree at least... its going into effect in the district... My old principal was a tad shocked when I showed him the ideas and explained where they all came from... I do believe the plan and course is getting dubbed "The Shinnyo War Plan" ^-^ I will keep you guys updated on that... cause... since its my idea... in a way... I get to help plan it... I think I got myself in way over my head... lol

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Tue May 22, 2007 10:33 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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NekoChan wrote:
...I really havent a clue on what younger kids could do... and I mean... I would hate for the teachers to be the ones to sacrifice themselves for the kids... but it might be the only viable option... unless someone, anyone has some sort of idea...
I don't know, either. Not great, but it looks like that's the choice, unless de Becker or Giduck have some better answers. (Dammit, I want those reserve deputies...)

Quote:
Slightly off topic... I actually pitched some of these ideas at my local high school, and they are all for trying it out, and if it works, to some degree at least... its going into effect in the district... My old principal was a tad shocked when I showed him the ideas and explained where they all came from... I do believe the plan and course is getting dubbed "The Shinnyo War Plan" ^-^ I will keep you guys updated on that... cause... since its my idea... in a way... I get to help plan it... I think I got myself in way over my head... lol
OUT - standing. Let's make sure we get the PD, the SO, EMS & Fire/Rescue, and the other responders on the same page - it's gotta be an integrated response, because we can't afford turf battles over this. (Your principal is likely to be the best front man for that.)

And you get to help plan it? Bet you didn't see that one coming, did you? Never fear - Doyle Associates, Technical and Tactical Consulting, is perfectly willing to give behind-the-scenes advice, worth exactly what you paid for it :P Seriously, though, the reading list gives you a few leads for expert consultants who actually have the credentials and the subject-matter expertise, if the question comes up.

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Wed May 23, 2007 7:49 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Luckily, we are a town of 5000 people (on a good day) so word of it got out fast... and everyone is all for it... even if the likelyhood of it happening here in Rockdale is like next to nothing... but still.. better to be prepared...

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Thu May 24, 2007 8:11 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Hey, it's a start. At least, your town is going to be better prepared.

I don't have any contacts in my town's school system, so I'm kinda stuck... anybody else have any better chances?

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

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Thu May 24, 2007 8:33 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Now for my portion of the plan...

"Everyone will buy my seemingly INNOCENT toys... and PAY THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY FOR THEM!"

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Sat May 26, 2007 8:32 am
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Chibi-Czar
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admiraltigerclaw wrote:
Now for my portion of the plan...

"Everyone will buy my seemingly INNOCENT toys... and PAY THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY FOR THEM!"


*jerks thumb at ATC* can I mallet him? *brandishes a ridicously huge mallet*

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Thu May 31, 2007 6:45 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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NekoChan wrote:
admiraltigerclaw wrote:
Now for my portion of the plan...

"Everyone will buy my seemingly INNOCENT toys... and PAY THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY FOR THEM!"


*jerks thumb at ATC* can I mallet him? *brandishes a ridicously huge mallet*
*switches mallet for Pulaski tool* Go for it...

On a more serious note, any early returns from the "WAR plan" proposal?

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Thu May 31, 2007 6:57 pm
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Oh... and AX ^-^ *swings it wildly*

Well classes ended in town Friday, so after two weeks off for the teachers, they are going to try and impliment the War Plan into the school. A lot of the teachers were behind it, and a bunch of the elementry teachers had ideas for what to do with their kids... Strangely enough... I am getting PAID for this... o.O like 2-300 bucks... but hell... why am I getting paid?

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Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:34 am
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Chibi-Czar
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[aside]It's a combination Axe / Mattock... that's gonna leave a mark :lol: [/aside]

Got the first responders in on it? [Definition: First Responder - those emergency services personnel from all agencies who will be expected to take action in the event of a critical incident.] This will include local police, county sheriff's deputies, and your area's Department of Public Safety barracks (I misremember what Texas DPS calls their equivalent of what my state calls a State Police Post); Fire/Rescue and Emergency Medical Service personnel (firefighters, paramedics and EMTs, and the Emergency Department of your nearest hospital); and such other persons as may be necessary to contain/mitigate/amelioratethe incident (or whatever buzzword you prefer for, "STOP the f*cking killing and start saving lives!"). They and their capabilities are going to be a major factor in your planning. Make sure your teachers and school admin understand this. Also, don't expect miracles - although everybody who was on the Job when I was would've dearly loved to have the latest and greatest, state-of-the-art, in training and equipment, we have to admit that, realistically, a town with only 5,000 people in it is not going to be able to afford to send all their cops to Thunder Ranch for marksmanship, nor all their paramedics to Johns Hopkins Hospital to intern with Baltimore EMS. (You can accomplish a surprisingly large amount with what you have, though, if you're careful.)

Cribbing from my old agency's emergency response plans, in general terms, any critical incident response has four objectives, in descending order of priority:
    1) Contain the threat (i. e., keep the threat to people's lives from spreading further and putting more people at risk);
    2) Protect and preserve life (save as many people as you can who are already at risk);
    3) Protect property and material (which takes a very distant third to the first two, but remember that you may need the material in order to preserve life); and
    4) Resume normal activities (which, if not done callously, actually helps people cope with the traumatic aftereffects of a critical incident)


Start thinking in those terms. And start your Recommended Reading, too, so you can start learning to speak the language. There's much more, so be inquisitive about your research.

-----------------

And, if the idea of getting paid bothers you, and you can afford to do it, do something creative with the money. Use it towards buying the books and putting them into a reference library for your teachers. Give it as a "Challenge Donation" for training for your teachers, cops, and firemen, and dare business owners and citizens to match your contribution to making your school safe. Put it towards the foundation of an endowment for school safety. Aside from being the right thing to do, this will actually increase your influence on emergency response - if you feel strongly enough about it to put your money where your mouth is, it can shame others into doing the right thing...

_________________
"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:09 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Me? bothered with getting paid? HAHAHA fuck no... MINE... *guards money*

I had actually forgotten about the whole EMS and first response teams... luckily, small town, serveral of the EMS people are teachers/couches/subs at the schools... and I know the word has spread through the town... cause I cant go anywhere nowadays... o.O especially considering that like... 3-4 years ago, I was one of the most UNLIKED people in town... because I spoke my mind about things... and now... people love me.... its SCARY...

I dunno... this is just a strange development in my life... *shrugs*

[aside] *randomly starts hitting things with the Pulaski tool, giggling in mad glee* I've been drinking, cant you tell? [/aside]

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:07 am
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Chibi-Czar
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If you can do "tactful" (defined as the ability to tell someone to go to Hell, and have them ask you to recommend a travel agent to book the trip), you might tactfully remind them that this is the proper result from tolerating somebody who voices improper opinions...

Congratulations on achieving celebrity - now, the bad news: you gotta live up to the legend. Your mission at this point - whether you choose to accept it or not - is to become a subject-matter expert, and/or at least an informed and intelligent advocate, for school safety in general, and "Active Shooter" defense and counter-terrorism in particular. There's something you can spend money on - get yourself educated and informed. That way, when somebody on the school board or town council tells you, "We can't afford to do that," you have the facts and figures to tell them, "We can't afford not to do that. Here's why we can't afford not..."

What's your motive for doing all this work now? Jimmy is going to be going to high school as a freshman in what, 12 years? 13? You want him going to a high school that is as safe as practical, with no bumbling around trying stuff that isn't proven, yes? Take the long view - a decade is plenty of time to get the kinks worked out of a prevention and response plan, and get the mindset firmly embedded in people's skulls, but now's the time to start working on it. At the moment, you are in the best position to shove the boulder and make it start to roll.

Scary stuff, huh? Not to worry - everybody on the board with interest and expertise is willing to help you, I'm sure. I know I am, at least.

Tell you what. Go ahead and post the War Plan, just like you'd pitch it before the school board. We'll poke holes in your proposal, then show you how to patch the holes so that you've got a viable plan to put out before you get to real life. That way, there's nobody gonna poke holes in it when it counts, because, even if we haven't forseen all the possible counterarguments and naysaying, you've got your facts and figures together to be able to rebut objections on the fly.


---------------

[aside]I've been drinking too, but you don't see me chopping up the furniture....[/aside]

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:38 am
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Well, shit... Now I guess I need to drag up my papers of everything that I wrote down... Ya know, I never really wanted to get involved, I dont plan on being in Rockdale in 12-13 years *shudder*

~~~ Ok here is how it all breaks down.... (I am SO paraphrasing what I wrote, cause its like 5 pages long...)

Prevention- If red flags on a student(s) are going off, try to find out WHY, and what cam be done to fix it (Rockdale has an abnormally HIGH teen suicide rate, until recently, because teachers and staff would turn the other cheek to bullying... what if the next person who got bullied decide to get revenege before dying?)

ZERO Tolerance for violence- Again, Rockdale has a high rate of school fights and bullying.... I suggested Anger Managment classes for people that get into repeat fights, plus harsher punishments

Open Door Policy- Now this I stole from my old work, and while it didnt work there, I see it working in a school.... People can report problems, of ANY kind without fear of punishment... Example: you see happen to see what looks like self-inflicted wounds on a person... you go and talk to the counseller about it... Its a way of giving a shit, without fear of getting your ass handed to you

And that ends my ways of prevention...

I suggested various ways to prepare, and to train for such an event... but I told them that I had very little in the way of helping out the elementry school, and Jr. high school... most of what I could figure out was geared towards the high school, but they saw it being modified for the younger kids...

Hand to Hand combat training- simple enough to do for high schoolers... make it count has a P.E. credit, and offer it to teachers as well... its not like Rockdale doesnt have ex-military people floating around, or people that havent studied like 6 forms of martial arts

Make sure EVERYONE knows the Evac plans- and this means having more than 2 firedrills in a year... monthly drills just so everyone KNOW...

LICENSED gun carrying faculty- Ok, in case you missed this earlier, numerous faculty members of RISD are EMS/Police... it wouldnt be THAT hard to obtain a waiver from the mayor to allow them to carry guns on the campuses, given that they follow stricter rules than usual... (And I cant find where I had it all outlined why having that sort of license would be harder)

Pepper spray for the students- Again, I dont see this one working with the younger kids... but give the kids a few classes on the proper use of pepper spray, with a fresher course half-way through the year... I know about 70% of the girls already carry pepper spray with them anyway

Basic field medicine- First aid type training, but a little beyond, how to handle a gunshot wound, and such... and this would be a class for EVERYONE... that way you have a team of students helping others, and the faculty (the armed ones at least) can handle the threat

Communications skill-building- granted, this one might be a moot point if someone just walks in with guns blazing... but say its a freaked out kid that grabbed daddy's gun before going to school... you might have a chance to get him calmed down before anything bad happened

Hazard Communication Standards- because, we DO have a chemistry class going... if someone was playing with chemicals, or brought said bad ones to school... you could pick up on it (again, maybe a moot point if guns are involved, but worth a shot)

~End WAR Plan~

Thats pretty much the outline of it... and since I have been awake a total of 20mins, and my eyes arent yet working right... its not a complete listing... just a good outline of what is best to do...

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:05 am
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I like that plan. You have a good mix of prevention, emergency response and damage control, it's realistic, most of it can be taught by non-experts, and nothing in it should be too offensive. IE, you won't be pissing off pacifists parents by teaching non-lethal ways to defend or first-aid.

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Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:00 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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Works for me. The devil's in the details, and there's a lot of things that have to go right to get a fully-functional plan in place... but you've got a good foundation to build on there.

Some comments:

Teachers and staffers will need to become more motivated about bullying - not in a touchy-feely way, but in a practical fashion. If there's someone who doesn't think it's a big deal, he's going to need to learn otherwise. If nothing else works, make it a condition of continued employment....

Open-door policy is good, but it's subject to abuse two ways. First, as I'm sure you found from Wally-World, it doesn't work if the person hearing the complaint doesn't do anything about it. Second, an open-door policy quickly breaks down if it's abused - i.e., some dipshit starts using it to dry-snitch rivals for things that never happened. Safeguards will be in order for both events.

I would say that somebody on faculty who is already a sworn law enforcement officer, and has met Texas's version of Peace Officer Standards and Training criteria, would be a safe bet for carrying weapons in school. In fact, I'm a bit surprised they aren't carrying already, but that's something to be brought up in legal issues.

Don't forget to explicitly bring the first responders into your planning - if you rely on, "surely the ones on faculty and staff will pass it on..." you're going to be disappointed. The PD, SO, and Fire Service should have copies of the building plans, and routinely brief their front-line people on them. And they're going to need to do drills too. Co-ordinating those will be somewhat difficult, but not insurmountable.

Overall, I like what you've got. Make sure the front-office types don't screw up the follow-through, and you'll be all right.

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:16 pm
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Chibi-Czar
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As far as I can remember, we have two REAL police officers, an EMS nurse, and a buttload of volunteer Fire dept...

I am trying to remember who all was there when I pitched the idea... and I am drawing a blank... *shrugs* oh well... next wensday begins the "process" of having it approved... we have to have it approved by the school board and city council.... The city council will be the only thing that could stop this... bunch of fucking bible thumping old people...

At least now I am more awake... YAY

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:58 pm
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Just found out about this:

VA Tech After-Action Review

I haven't had a chance to read the documents on the site, but it looks like an official, public, after - action review. I'll be very interested to see what they come up with...

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:58 pm
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Early inquiry results: Health and Human Services / Attorney General's Report on VA Tech

And LtCol Grossman on what they missed

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"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:57 am
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The five-months-afterwards update:

VA Tech review panel's report available on-line broken down by section/chapter into PDF files (some files 2-3 MB)

SWAT officer and consultant Frank Borelli has an ongoing series regarding school shootings on his website here. This week's post covers VA Tech, available here. (this is Part 6 of 15, not counting indicia - new articles posted weekly, so check back frequently)

_________________
"Charlie was a policeman, Nick-san. If you steal, you disgrace him. And me. And yourself..."

"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

Token Reactionary S.O.B.


Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:56 pm
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