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 Nevermind. I'm gone. 
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Duke of New York

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Post Nevermind. I'm gone.
Tozetre wrote:
Bitch bitch, whine whine. I gave it back at the community's request, ya sissy.


I didn't mean the comment to be dismissive or insulting to you, T. I was simply stating a fact. Now if I had said "because he's (insert insulting comment here)," I could understand being pissy. Instead you insult me again.

I actually had something to say the other day on the subject of Canadian health care in the thread Doyle posted and I went through and wrote a long ass post (as is my style) with various points I felt might be relevant. I was optimistic in doing it since I wasn't going to be saying anything positive about it, meerly making a point that while Canada's isn't that great, that doesn't mean that the U.S.' is some sparkling gem of perfection either and I thought that by making sure to kick the Canadian health system, you and I might come to some point of common agreement to build off of.

But then I lost hope of that. It just seems like lately anytime I post anything that doesn't meet your one hundred percent approval, word for word, it invites dismissive comments and lectures about how wrong I am. Hell, I used Canadian health care in an analogy about someone who might have ideas that conflicted with your own and you acted like I was the one standing up for it. I mentioned how a previous incorrect and hasty comment of mine was wrong in so many ways, using it as an example of how hurting and insulting dismissive statements could be and you responded by acting like I was still trying to preach that incorrect point and compared me to a racist in the process (that whole yelling "Nigger at Obama" statement).

Yes, I responded to that inappropriatly. Yes, I was mean. And that is why I am posting this where I can for ever one to see; I am sorry. I was wrong for letting my temper get the better of me.

But that doesn't make you any more right.

But that doesn't matter. I don't want to play anymore.

I thought these forums, both Fiss' and yours, could be a great oppertunity. I want to change the world. I really do. I want to leave it better then I found it. And while so many people in the world want nothing more then to watch sports and focus on media darlings, I had hoped that I might be able to find kindred spirits on-line. Talking about problems and discussing issues we might be able to find middle grounds or third options to so many shitty things in this world that we don't normally find because the majority of people out there are so concerned with what they have already made up in their mind as right.

You were the pinnacle of that hope, Tozetre. I thought if you and I could come to a middle ground on things, that would be a good start. However, you've already made up your mind on so many things, willfully acknowledged that while you have limited knowledge about many issues, you still hold strong feelings about them and are willing to call people that disagree zealots in so many words.

And you don't listen. You proved that in our last spat. I said something, you took it out of context and used it as a starting block to preach about how right you are. I complained and you did it again. I told you off and you were more concerned with my insults then my complaints.

Then when you said I held you in complete disregard and I said I didn't, that I merely didn't know how to talk to you anymore, you accused me of being a Nazi and an idiot. I came back to the W.A.R. and you still had to take a cheap shot at me, even when you haven't kept your word and unbanned me. (Also, my username on his forum is CurtisBethlehem and my password is batman69 for those that want to be doubly sure).


So, I'm not going to bother anymore. I'm not going to try. I think it's best if I just go my own little way. I'm just going to go. Hell, it's not like arguing on the internet amounted to anything anyway. I'll still be on IM and email for those that want to keep in contact but I'm done with forums. Fiss can delete my account if he needs space on his server.

Goodbye

And now there is nothing left for me to say.


Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:26 am
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Draxel, you're always welcome here, and you can auto-ignore any comments that you feel are detrimental to your enjoyment of the WAR and the internets in general. Here's hoping you're still hanging around. Tis all good my friend.

Tozetre, I can only hope you stop taking every opportunity to verbally jab people in the kidneys with what I'm sure you believe are harmless attacks. They kinda hurt after the 10th time or so. I'm glad I have never taken any of our arguments this seriously as to want to break off all contact with you. Please see the value in that, and know that you have a direct and dramatic link to the frequency that this happens. It would be nice not to see this type of post repeated every 4 or 5 months. Feel free to tell me to STFU...whatever, it's just a suggestion.

I would like to take this opportunity...not like I'll never get another chance, but I can dream the foolish moderator's dream on occasion that people might actually listen to this...to state the following:

THIS IS THE INTERNET. THIS IS NOT SOME EVER-LIVING TESTAMENT TO YOUR RIGHT TO BE HERE, YOUR SKILLS, YOUR VALUES OR YOUR GENEALOGY. IT IS A COLD, BRUTAL WORLD OF HYPER-EXTENDED IDEAS AND COMMUNICATION, NOT SOME BIBLE OF BEING. GIVING A SHIT IS COMPLETELY OPTIONAL!!! AT ANY TIME, YOU CAN TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER. AT ANY TIME, YOU CAN STOP RESPONDING AND READING. AT ANY GIVEN TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT, YOU CAN USE THE HANDY DANDY FEATURES OF THIS WEBSITE TO IGNORE, MUTE, AND COMPLETELY AVOID ANYONE YOU FEEL IS MAKING YOUR STAY ON THE INTERNET A NEGATIVE ONE.

If you feel frustrated, victimized, picked on or harassed, you can let me know and I'll do my best to help out as a friend. I honestly don't mind...but half the time I only get involved when feelings are already shredded and spat upon, and the damage is already terminal. If you would like to help me turn this around, I would gladly accept the duty! Quote-Unquote "Winning" an Internet Argument should not be so Goddamn important as to destroy friendships, even if they are just net-friendships.


Anyone have any other good advice?

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
D: I repeat, bitch bitch, whine whine. Which one of us demonstrated the uselessness of stomping off in a huff last time? Right, me. Which one of us pointed out how dumb it was? Right, you.

F: And I hope you eventually stop complaining to me in public about being mean while letting the rest of the troll flowers grow and blossom like beautiful and unique snowflakes, but you can't always get what you want.

Protip for pretty much everyone; if you hate my views or how I express them, ban me or ignore me. They're opinions, for God's sake, and it's not exactly a secret that I'm an asshole.

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Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Heaven forbid anyone publicly point out anything negative about anyone.

Heaven also forbid I don't come to certain people's rescue with moderation when it seems convenient, and shame on anyone who believes that most people should be able to handle things civilly on their own.

And may the Internet swallow me up in the deepest, darkest reaches of /b/ should I DARE make special points and mentions of anyone who is involved with 95% of all flames ever seen on the WAR or their own board. If not in creation, but then in endless feeding and escalation to the point of...well...what we're seeing right now. Clearly that has no logical use, is completely biased, and should I ever attempt such a thing, I'm certain it would be caused by some kind of long-term exposure to a hallucinogen.

Anything else, Tozetre?

Or, I'll just wait until you get sick of this happening everywhere you frequent on the internet and either ban/ignore everyone who disagrees with you, or realize that there might be some other option at your disposal.

I am not complaining.

Quite simply, I discovered long ago that complaining wouldn't matter anyway. The internet is a huge place filled with plenty of people to replace anyone you might need to ban and ignore, so if you do choose to keep your current methods of 'winning' discussions, I doubt you'll be too lonely for long.

Are you honestly that happy with 'winning' that this counts as a validation to your ego more than honest discussion and bonding with fellow souls, even if only agreeing to disagree? Don't you miss collaboration? Advancement? Thought Provoking Challenges to your ideas? The perpetuation of ideas, ideals and ideologies? I'm not saying you haven't been doing this...you have...but I wonder how many times these amazing, beautiful opportunities you've had to express yourself and share your intelligence have been...literally...burned to the ground in flames.

If you're happy with endings like this, with long-time friends and comrades being tossed to the side like SPAM, then fine. If you feel that you have enough honest-to-goodness successes that you can afford a few firefights, then good on ya.

But don't play the poor-me wounded puppy card. No moderator is out to get you, or not out to get your opponents. And especially don't play the anti-hero-asshole poster child.

You're not an asshole, and that's the problem. An asshole would have an excuse because they don't know any better. You know, you can reason, you can be humble and you can be righteous without being abrasive. You've seen worse, and you've practised better. On occasion, you've even apologized, and I've always been happier to hear those words than any half-assed 'win'. Not because it made me right...in fact, many times it was not even in the context of an argument or discussion...but rather it made me right to know you were that kind of person that I suspected you were. Noble, brilliant, and adaptable.

As you so commonly point out, you are not stupid, and you are not forgetful of these things. What you do to people in situations like this is not stupid, nor is it hateful or spiteful, and thus, I harbour no ill will or anger toward you or anyone who gets caught up in these times of frustration.

This is, I suspect, just habit.

Now..."tact" may not be the 100% right word for what I'm thinking of, but it's close. Humility sounds too dramatic, and being nice never got anyone too far all the time, so we'll use Tact as the word. Feel free to tell me I'm not using it right now...I believe I am, and hope I am...and if I am not, I will honestly apologize in advance. But here is one more piece of wisdom that I've picked up over my years:

Tact is small, fragile, cheap and tastes bitter on occasion...but damn...it grows into some amazing things if you plant it. Best part of all is you can still be right, you can still press your opinion and will onto others, and you can still defend what you believe in with the utmost fever. Tact does not require you to surrender, apologize needlessly, or weaken your position in any way.

I'll leave it to you to decide which is worth more: the habit, or a bit of tact once in a while.

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
You're not an asshole


I'm not playing any cards, wounded puppy or otherwise. And yes, I am an asshole. I have always been an asshole, and I will always be an asshole; ask Draxel. Ask BTL and SC, even ask Byron and James and Binky and Pod and Butters. Friends and enemies agree, I'm a tremendous asshole. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. I'm an asshole because I do know better, I just don't care.

I'm not playing an asshole card. I'm just pointing out, le duh, that people should not be surprised that I am an asshole to someone. I am a brutal, unfair asshole- get over it, stop whining that I ought to be nice, stop pretending that I have ever been all rainbows and bunnies.

Also,
Christopher Fiss wrote:
Heaven forbid anyone publicly point out anything negative about anyone.

did you hear yourself just there? The application of this text to your posts in this thread are left as an exercise for the reader.

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Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:24 am
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
So.. By your omission.. your an asshole like Hancock is. You care.. but you dont.

I know i'm jumping into something here that I know for SURE that's not my /b, but having it in open discussion kinda makes it hard to miss.

I have seen this pattern before and unfortunately it results in one of you 3 getting more pissed off at another till someone has had enough and takes action and then its a period of time where all stew's in a pot of self-righteousness and believe their right and blah blah blah...

Knowing all 3 of you, despite being on the net alone and talking to mostly Fiss and Toze, (sorry i don't talk to you as often Drax, i don't have any way to talk other then here) I see this ugly pattern, I'd like to say I'm good friends with each and everyone of you to say this

Toze: You've admitted your an asshole, OK that's your choice to be, your opinions shared are great, insightful to some and the others that don't share in that opinion get blasted till this happens. I see this vicious cycle happening often and being the person I am, i dont like to see friends fight, regardless of the topic/opinion thrown around.
I dont for one second the personal insight to your head but in the topics that you read and have written about kinda gives me an idea. Fiss is right. Its the net, free speech and all. Sharing your ideas (i seem to be rambling and repeating myself...) is your every right. Its not right to blast back with our own ideas saying we're wrong.

Fiss: I'm sure you've seen the cycle happen, known Toze for MANY years, know the type of person he is, and blah blah. Seeing your msg blasting at him for stating the obvious about the Internet I find is rather rhetorical because this is Toze we're talking about.. he's got his opinions about everything. Some we see and either flawed, some we see as brilliance. I'm sure you see things as I do and even know that the other patrons of the site know how toze is. Its Toze, He enjoys venting about everything :P

Again, I know i'm just throwing out stuff thats either already known or just not seen from other POV's. And i'm also very aware that i'm just putting my nose into something that i probably shouldn't but being the type of person i am.. i just couldn't witness the battle again.

Just my 2ยข

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
The whole "heaven forbid anyone" element was a direct attack on the rather silly idea that I'm berating you in public, Tozetre. Right after you do the same. And making a point at how goddamn silly it was, you know, with sarcasm...everyone's favourite misinterpretation. :P

Not caring has to work both ways, hence why I know you're not an asshole. You just get lazy. Not caring = lazy. Fair enough. But you're trying to use a minor character byproduct as your core being whenever it suits you. I don't buy it, and I certainly didn't say anything about rainbows and puppies...I said that you have INSIGHTFUL and USEFUL arguments, but only when you have a dialogue opened with people. The moment you can't get what you want, you shift gears into whatever level of asshole you believe you are, and because you think you're putting on that asshole cloak due to a never ending righteous reason of personal logic and rightness, you justify and champion the concept by idealizing it into some kind of whiskey-priest character flaw that only the people you'd never give a shit about would think is actually negative.

If you want to call yourself an asshole, fine by me, it's just a word, but I've seen and dealt with real assholes...which is probably one of the biggest reasons I tell Draxel, BTL, SC, Byron, James, Binky, Pod and Butters that you're not actually that bad, and I'll defend you to a reasonable neutral point.

Don't worry, this isn't some massive crusade I've somehow become believing I need to fight...I'm not giving you some random percentage of charity. I'm doing this because I know that it really is a bitch when people let 2 or 3 annoying arguments or misinterpreted words ruin a good thing.

Toze and Zangetsu: I'm not fighting Tozetre's right to be a dick. I can't in good faith call down the joy of personal freedom, then bitch about what happens because of it. I'm not saying that the 'cycle' will change, nor will it ever need to. All I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of things, you can say the same words, press the same arguments, and discuss the same topics...and still have people to talk to after all is said and done.

If the laziness and habit to ignore that possible outcome is looking better than exercising the tiniest bit of tact, grace, and the common courtesies, then that's fine...but one of the big advantages with doing it the non-100% asshole way is that you get more than one shot with someone.

Even if a conversation doesn't result in a ban, a Mute/Ignore, or an never-ending period of avoidance, Tozetre, I believe you can agree that after you've had one giant flaming piss-pile argument with someone, pretty much EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION AFTERWORDS is already burnt, half on fire, and in some cases, logic and sanity have already been told by FEMA to get the fuck out of there.

This basically gives you a 1 time shot to make any kind of long term, meaningful challenging relationships with someone, or a heaping ton of forgiveness and patience will be required. And before you start quoting 'lazy' again, that effort would have to be put forth by BOTH you and someone else to move past that initial firefight.

You say you're lazy? What sounds like more work? Stomping out a camp fire or putting out a forest fire? Yeah, you can keep moving on, ignoring both, but again, eventually, you're going to want to walk into a park without Smokey the Bear and the park rangers gunning for you.

Not expecting an answer, so long as you actually read what I'm trying to say and understand my motives instead of trying to tack them onto some misguided adventure in fluffy bunnies and rainbows, or your own assholeness. I'm happy with that, and I'm more than happy enough with never needing to post anything like this ever again. But if you feel anything I've said is misdirected, then let me know, so I can explain, because this shit is important, and I don't mind shoving away the apathy for a while to deal with this. Friend or foe, right or wrong, there are things too important to be ruined in such a petty, moronic way. The internet shouldn't have to be partially or completely responsible for anything like this...it's full of too much win. But it is responsible, because we forget we are talking to people on the other end sometimes.

That's all I was trying to say.

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Zangetsu wrote:
So.. By your omission.. your an asshole like Hancock is. You care.. but you dont.


What? No! I'm an asshole like Goering: I <3 my luftwaffle and to hell with the rest of you.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
The whole "heaven forbid anyone" element was a direct attack on the rather silly idea that I'm berating you in public,


OMG STOP BERATING ME IN PUBLIC U LAMER.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
a minor character byproduct as your core being whenever it suits you.


Man, when have I ever claimed to not be an asshole? The last time I said "I'm so personable and charming" I got like five people to cuss me for making them laugh so hard.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
you justify and champion the concept by idealizing it into some kind of whiskey-priest character flaw


Whaaaaa? No I don't! I never claimed being an asshole was a good thing. I even tried to change once- that experiment failed terribly, btw- I just keep explaining it to people when they're all "wah wah wah Tozetre was mean to me" like it's something unexpected. The line isn't "I'm an asshole and I'm sorry," it's "I'm an asshole, cry some more furfag."

Christopher Fiss wrote:
I tell Draxel, BTL, SC, Byron, James, Binky, Pod and Butters that you're not actually that bad,


Man, I thought you knew me. Yes I am. That's why I keep explaining "I'm an asshole." I made Butters cry (delicious tears of pain). He gets it and can't deal- fine. James and Binky get it and can- fine. That's them being different people, not me being less of an asshole to my friends.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
I'm not fighting Tozetre's right to be a dick.


YES U R STOP OPRESING ME.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
I believe you can agree that after you've had one giant flaming piss-pile argument with someone, pretty much EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION AFTERWORDS is already burnt,


What? Nah. I've had a series of arguments of escalating intensity with elitist Liberal socialists, and we both gained a tremendous amount of respect for each other and better friendships out of it. The problem arises when one side decides that the other one isn't worth arguing with anymore. I'm an asshole, but I don't put up with "oh well you're just a dick so you're wrong" arguments.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
Friend or foe, right or wrong, there are things too important to be ruined in such a petty, moronic way.


Bullshit, and intolerance of a perfectly healthy conflict-oriented manner of interaction under the guise of humanistic tolerance. Come see the violence inherent in the system!

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Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
I'm giving you 1/10 on the Troll scale for this one.

Since you're avoiding any kind of actual discussion (responding to 4 or 5 of the points I make that you have snappy little come-backs formulated for in advance, then hoping they cause so much of a shit storm that people forget about the other dozen or so you've ignored) I'll boil it down for you so you have a nice, clear, line of sight to what I'm going at:

  • There is absolutely no positive gain for yourself or others when you abandon civility.
  • Any sense of accomplishment you receive by acting the asshole is the emotional equivalent of a minor sugar rush compared to actual achievement.
  • The gains in friendship and relationships you've experienced are only had after honest and truthful discussion, NOT flame-wars. This is how I know you're not an asshole...just being lazy when you go off on tangents like this.
  • Violence in the system is fine, in fact I believe I mentioned I agreed with you on this point multiple times. Conflict is necessary and it can create positive results. But it doesn't need to be like this. "This" being what happens when a 14 year old ADD boy discovers when he starts swearing at people in a chat room and discovers nobody is going to beat him up because of it.
  • What I'm proposing is all of the Win, none of the Fail and Asshattery. Simple as that.

Tozetre wrote:
when have I ever claimed to not be an asshole?


Lots of people claim lots of things. In general, claiming something repeatedly is something more akin to an excuse for not being it. You want to prove you're an asshole? Go ahead. Do something truly selfish and abusive to another person. But I don't buy it, and I know anything you could do like that is simply out of spite, not out of actual desire.

Making people cry with ZOMG INTERNET ARGUMENTS!!! is no earth-shattering sin you have to some how own-up to and atone for. Stop pretending it is and instead own-up to your own brilliance before you lose it under this facade of bullshit. You running around saying "Lookit mee! lookit me! I'm a dick!" only illustrates further WHY I'm worried.

I couldn't give a shit if you make people leave this board, or you make people cry, move out, curse your name or hate you. You're my friend, and therefore, I'm trying to say:

"You're only hurting yourself with this."

Justify that all you want. That's the truth, and the real reason I cringe whenever I see these flame wars. It's also why I grin like a Fiss in a Jolt Warehouse whenever I see you actually sit down and show your mettle instead of just verbally dropping your pants to moon people.

If all this touchy-feely friendship stuff is making you uncomfortable, then I'll switch to my own selfish wants.

Insults, trolling, flamewars, asshattery, and the realm of bullshit is all the same bag of weapons and tricks that morons around the universe have been using since the dark ages. Is there any doubt why I want you and everyone else I give 2 shits about to stand up, deliver, and use something better than that old tired bag??

I created this site for something more than the same old bullshit being rehashed over and over again, and God willing, I will see that purpose come true.

If you want to help, then start arguing with me, stop trolling, and stop getting the two confused.

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Well, I didn't respond to your points 'cause they were twaddle. Pop-culture psychoanylization like "you're like Hancock?" What did you expect me to respond with, "oh, you have cut to the heart of the matter, woe is me and my bullshit-covered golden heart?" No. I'm an asshole, people say I'm an asshole, and I admit I'm an asshole. Your hippie feel-good "everyone's good inside" bullshit never cut it with me before this and it's not going to change my mind now; people are dirty, loathsome, petty creatures of hate and malice.

It's no surprise that you should trivialize the elements of my personality that you dislike, lessening me as a person, just as it's no surprise that I stomp all over people who don't deserve it, just as it's no surprise that generally rational people turn into screaming lunatics when you suggest they might be wrong about the existence or nonexistence of God. Humans are not happy creatures that are good if you just give them a chance, or even if they're still an asshole ten years after you meet them. "Hurt myself?" It is myself, you preening humanist! Some people, believe it or not, are not good at social things, do not like other people, and have got better things to do than try to pretend to be something they're not. This is not something to change about me; it is a negative thing only if you decide that social butterflies are superior to introverts, and that curmudgeons are inferior to people who smile all the time. I'm an asshole because I can't be arsed to deal with poppycock and nonsense, and I don't expend massive emotional reserves to please people I'm not close to. Anyone who has a problem with that can fuck right off.

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Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:48 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
You DO realize that I'm not the one comparing you to Hancock, right?

Are you even reading what I'm saying? Of course not. You tack "pop culture" & "twaddle" to whatever I say so you don't have to listen to it. Fair enough, but I'm only responding in kind, Tozetre. You went there first, I responded to try to get some kind of commonality out of you, and then you turn around and use the initial bullshit you instigated as a veto point in my argument. Sorry, that doesn't fly very well. Call me a "hippie" all you want. Doesn't make me one, confuses me, but it's hardly an insult anyway, so I don't mind. In fact, 'hippies' are generally associated with counter-culture, diversity, revolution and changing the face of the world, then I bow and thank you for the compliment. Considering so much of your life has been influenced by these traits, I'm wondering why you're using it like a swear-word? This website...the "cyberspace revolution" in fact, has been directly linked to this kind of thinking.

"people are dirty, loathsome, petty creatures of hate and malice."

Some are. But that doesn't mean you give up on them. If that doesn't sit well with you, fine, there are plenty of people trying. Feel free to sit back, relax, and pretend whatever you want about yourself, your views, and your life that makes you feel better about sitting there and doing nothing. Heaven isn't meant to be you, God, and a dozen people who you respect all sitting around circle-jerking on how awesome and perfect you feel you are.

Never once have I stated that smiling makes you a better person. In fact, I do believe I've made some pretty directly relevant statements on and off line at how the people who pretend to be smiling happy people are morons.

Never once have I stated anyone ever superior to another person. Stop projecting your own prejudices onto my words. If that's what you THINK I'm saying, tell me, let me know, and give me a chance to clarify. Don't just shout "HAHAH! I THINK HE'S SAYING ONE THING! EVERYTHING ELSE HE SAYS MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE OF THIS!" It's getting old.

For some reason, you think that "being nice" takes "massive emotional reserves". Whatever made you think that...I don't know...but you did it wrong. Being nice, or at the very minimum, being civil, takes a noticeable amount of effort less than throwing a temper tantrum and trying your hardest to justify it. Hell, you can still be a right bloody bastard, tell people to fuck off and their momma too, and make them actually listen to you because you don't degenerate to the level of a 3rd grader who just learned that his parents react strongly to him saying 'shit'.

I repeat:

All the good, none of the bad, half of the effort, and 1% the long-term damage to friends, family, teachers, students, and other valuable members of society...

and you can't be bothered to respond to me because you're scared shitless you'd actually consider something you didn't come up with first.

Prove me wrong. Don't just say "Nyah! I'm a shark! Suck my dick!"

Show me 1 benefit, show me a good reason, or show me something that is otherwise compelling that you feel you're acting out of some sense of dignity and rightness instead of just being a slave to habit and laziness.

Character traits are there for a reason. We are who we are because we think it works, even if it doesn't.

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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
For some reason, you think that "being nice" takes "massive emotional reserves".


And for some reason you and every other person who find it easy to deal with people think that your experience is normative and that introverts just aren't trying hard enough. Long walk, short pier, I'm tired of hearing from extroverts how easy it is to be civil and cheerful and talk to people and how it doesn't exhaust emotional reserves.

Christopher Fiss wrote:
you're scared shitless you'd actually consider something you didn't come up with first.


Oh yes, that's sure to get my attention and make me reconsider my position. Or maybe it's the same bullshit I've heard from people who neither know me nor like me, and take it as a sign I should start ignoring someone's arguments.

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:55 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
*readreadrea...*

:|

*massive uncare*

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:47 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Tozetre wrote:
And for some reason you and every other person who find it easy to deal with people think that your experience is normative


I actually LOLed at that. 8) <sighs> Listen, Tozetre, the problem is that it's you that assumes you know everything based on your very limited knowledge. I don't care how many degrees you get, how many books you crack, how many years you live...if you don't look beyond your own point of view, you can learn only the laser-beam-width worth of stuff you point yourself at. Instead of inspiring others, you burn them away. Instead of collaborating, you ask 'how can you possibly think anything different than I and think you are right'?

I KNOW I fuck up. I KNOW I'm wrong about plenty of things. And I KNOW I am far from this miracle hippie-extrovert-wannabe-guru you seem to believe I'm puffing up to play.

I'm not telling you how to live, what to believe in, or that you're always wrong...hell, you have great ideas and you CAN and HAVE done amazing things with them...including changing my stubborn old arsed mind more than once. But ONLY when you put down the shit and actually discus things.

I'm not telling you that the way you think is bad. Far from it. I'm telling you that the way you chose to interact is limited. When it does shit like this, and it has multiple times, and you have repeatedly apologized for it, then I try to step in and say: Let's try turning it from its anticlimactic ending of flame wars worthy of Internet Tough Guy and try to get it all back on track.


Tozetre wrote:
and take it as a sign I should start ignoring someone's arguments.


If my words are echoing those that you've heard from people who don't know you or like you, then I feel truly sorry that you need to extend the blanket of ignorance over to when it comes from your friends. But I am not a mind-reader. As cool as it would be, so I could partially help avoid shit-storms like this.

If I say something that some ignorant dick who thought you were an asshole said to you...then that's in your mind, not mine, and the only time I am truly pissed off at you is when you think that my words are coming from this same, malicious source. That's not fair to either of us. But I don't get offended because I've done it too, hated feeling like it, and know it's a common mistake.

What *I* am trying to say to you comes out of friendship to you, a desire to see both you and other friends treated fairly, and a nagging frustration at the ironic titles you hide behind when we both know they're false.

-B- wrote:
*massive uncare*


Normally I agree, but really, I'm tired of this and I'm not backing down unless I get an actual response to what I'm saying. To ALL that I'm saying. And it has to be something a bit more substantial than "look at my e-cock!".

There ya go, Toze. Defeating Me: As simple as showing me the benefits of your current methods of argument. Easy victory...?

I'd love to show you it's easy. It's not. I acknowledge that being civil is a bitch when you REALLY want to ream someone out. But I simply can't compete with all the arguments you've ever waged in your memory fuelling your anger and distrust of current conversations. That's why I've accepted this for now, and want to show you that you're not being an ass, but you are being quite silly for doing this. This is my attack, and this is my argument. It is as unloaded as I can make it, and I honestly have no personal anger in this. At this point, I'm honestly, truly acting out of friendship and a hope that you can help me unravel one of the biggest problems I've seen:

For every argument you start, you have the baggage of a dozen forcing you into battle mode at every single turn.

Ask yourself what exactly is all this anger and apathy swirling about doing to you? Can it possibly be doing any good?

Doesn't it get exhausting?

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:04 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Christopher Fiss wrote:
Listen, Tozetre, the problem is that it's you that assumes you know everything based on your very limited knowledge.


I'm done here.

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Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
Y'know, I get the feeling, that the two biggest thing this trainwreck of a thing is missing is body-language, and tone of voice.

Eh, despite the plain meanings of words, I've noticed that sometimes words alone, no matter the attempt at clarity, r t3h suk.

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Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Nevermind. I'm gone.
My thoughts exactly, B.

However, I find its easy to amplify when you purposely seek out what 'offends' you, ignore the attempts at clarity, and...still...never actually get to the heart of the matter. I'm a firm believer that text can portray exactly what you want, if the audience is willing. Unfortunately...the nature of certain discussions makes this rare. I've done it plenty of times, and the only reason I'm really seriously trying to fight it this time is because it's so damn important in this kind of situation.

Ahh well. I've said my piece, and will continue to fight for it if and when needed. I'm not in any hurry, and if anything, I'm proud of you Toze and do hope you'll yell at me for anything particularly nasty you feel I've said. I'll endeavour to clarify.

As for the quote: It's exactly what you said to me, so don't act all hurt. I mean it. You meant it when you said it to me. We're both right. Only a fool thinks they know everything, and I know you're not a fool. It's just really annoying when you pretend.

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