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 Dangerous Dungeons! 
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Post Dangerous Dungeons!
OMG! IT'S JACK CHICK!

I love the portrail of D&D players in this. Not only is the "ready for REAL magic" player the most retarded and annoying person ever, but apparently, D&D sesions are used to recruit witches.

Ahh, silly Jack Chick...don't you know that Jesus rolls d20's? 8)

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:53 pm
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once found an interesting read on a DnD site using the same logic that christians considered DnD to be a tool of satan, to turn Chess into one. hehe.

and as for that comic..DAMNIT! why hasnt my DM inducted me into his evil cult of stan worshippers? im a level 6 sorcerer/3 alienist! i deserve to great the other powers! ;)

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:34 pm
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Tsk, I thought I'd mentioned this to all you guys.

I actually sourced this tract (along with a couple dozen equally stupid books) as part of a 20-page thesis proposal paper on the popular Christian perception of D&D. The main findings I got were that nobody knew jack shit about it, they all went back to the same four (totally flawed) books/papers written 81-84, and that nobody had ever done any actual research on the spiritual (as opposed to psychological) effects.

Actually, my paper had a working title (changed when I handed it in of course) of "Why Jack Chick is a moron."

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:21 pm
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You wouldn't happen to still have the bibliographies on those four papers, would you?

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"Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step to true panic."
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Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:34 pm
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Gotta love This. Actually, I really hate that. D&D has been pretty prominent in the last two days or so.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:15 pm
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*click click... click click*

Bibliography
Bennet, Delores, Enlo, Rick, and Grunberg, Gino. Dungeons & Dragons Unveiled. Kent,Washington: Heritage Printing, 1984.
Chick, Jack. Dark Dungeons. Ontario: Chick Publications, 1984.
Dear, William. The Disappearance of James Dallas Egbert III. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1984.
Elshof, Phyllis Ten. "D&D: A Fantasy Fad or Dabbling in the Demonic?",Christianity Today (4 September 1981): 56.
Holmes, John Eric "Confessions of a Dungeon Master", Psychology Today (November 1980): 84-94.
Maddux, Bob. Fantasy Explosion. Ventura: Regal Books, 1986
Myers, Bill and Wimbish, David. The Dark Side of the Supernatural. Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1999.
Pulling, Pat and Cawthon, Kathy. The Devil's Web; Who is Stalking Your Children for Satan?. Lafayette: Huntington House, Inc., 1989.
Robie, Joan Hake. The Truth About Dungeons and Dragons. Lacnaster: Starburst, Inc., 1991
Schuster, William G. "Critics Link a Fantasy Game to 29 Deaths", Christianity Today (17 May 1985): 64-65
Weldon, John and Bjornstad, James. Playing with Fire. Chicago: Moody Press, 1984.

Some notes: Pat Pulling was the psycho who claimed D&D was responsible for some 700 murders in the mid-80's, got called to educate police, etc. Her criteria for "caused" was "phrase D&D appears in report." She also formed an organization called Mothers Against D&D, which employed a doctor who'd had his lisence removed.

Joan Hake Robie was one of the major sources of "information." Her stuff is absolute bullshit, takes stuff out of context, etc.

William Dear is the guy who hyped the whole thing up to begin with, and is pretty much directly responsible for everything that happened afterwards. His book's a purile brick of self-aggrandizement.

Phyllis Ten Elshof wrote the original article that totally misquoted John Eric Holmes. Holmes wrote a paper describing D&D in positive terms. Elshof quoted Holmes WAY out of context and claimed he hated D&D. Everyone after her quoted her quoting Holmes, not Holmes himself, because to quote Holmes would be to bust one of the most oft-cited proofs that D&D is evil.

There's also a couple dozen major psychological papers written between 85 (when someone actually bothered to study it) and 95 (when they ran out of myths to bust), and the whole thing's been a non-issue in the psych community since then. It's impossible to claim that D&D causes psychic harm, period. Those you can get from a list at... hmm, I seem to have lost the link. Wait, here it is;
http://www.theescapist.com/litlist.htm
Check under "scholarly publications" for lots of useful English-language studies.
See also
http://www.rpgstudies.net/
for more stuff on RPGs, though a lot's in German.
http://www.hoboes.com/html/RPG/Defense.html
Has some more assorted links but not much the first two don't have.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:17 pm
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Gah.

Hey Tozetre, you wouldn't happen to have you're paper in convenient .txt form, would you? Might make an interesting read. Unless you school has some sort of crazy "any work done within the legal confines of this school is the sole property of this school" bullcrap.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:40 pm
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Hahah. No, I go to grad school. They couldn't keep track of what we produce, and academia is all about the open and free learning environment.

here...
http://psdf.studioshinnyo.com/pub/FINAL.txt

That's a straight openoffice-to-text conversion, no editing. Most of it's a literature review, and using C. S. Lewis to counter this dumb and pernicious idea that "fantasy is evil!" or "magic in fiction is evil!" since in academic work you're not allowed to just say "these people are morons." I did make a major mistake in one of my Lewis citations, on his view of fantasy as always drawing people toward God, but the argument as a whole still stands.

:P Serves you right for asking for it, and you're lucky I didn't blather more. MA students are notorious for going on at length about their favorite topics, and I'm mouthy anyway.

Oh, and there's no line breaks. I'll see if I can fix that, if anyone complains about it, but I need to run to town right now.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:14 pm
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This is another, broader issue here. The values of the game are not only pro-violence and death; they also entrain the player in an entirely different way of looking at life: what is called by anthropologists the "Magical World View(MWV)." This MWV is far outside the cultural norms of most societies, and certainly outside the realms of Biblical values. Let me explain:

1. The MWV teaches that there exists in the universe a neutral force, like gravity, which is magic. In this worldview, there is no sovereign God; but rather the universe is run like a gigantic piece of machinery. Magic's application is the understanding of how to manipulate the universe to get what you want. The analogy would be of putting a right coin in the slot of a vending machine and pushing the button. You automatically get your candy-assuming you used the right coin and pushed the right button. The MWV is like that. If you know the right technology (spell, ritual, incantation, etc.) the universe must respond-just like the light must go on if you flip the switch. It is automatic, and scientifically repeatable.
2. The Judeo-Christian Worldview (i.e. from the Bible, and held by most cultures in the Western world to some degree) teaches, on the contrary, that the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He must be asked. Thus, it is more like a child going up to a parent and asking for candy, than getting it from a vending machine. The parent may say "yes," "no," or "Wait till later." Similarly, in the Bible, there is no way to automatically manipulate God to get what you want, because He is an omnipotent Person. Additionally, God says that magic is deep and abominable sin (see above).

Now obviously, these two worldviews cannot exist in the same moral universe. Either one is true and the other false or vice-versa. Thus, one cannot be a Christian and believe in the MWV and not be some sort of hypocrite or deceived person. The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even common sense.


Despite what he might think, his description of the magic world view is almost the exact opposite of what the actual magic world view is.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:01 pm
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Um yes. I was under the impression that magic was direct result of multiple gods. Then again, I think this guy would find that equally abhorrent. There?s just no pleasing some people.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:06 pm
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However, this man assumes that gaming teaches that the MWV is what exists in the real world. He forces readers to assume that what you make-up is something you hold in the real world.

Clearly, I don't believe that magic pervades the real universe, so what is the problem with my playing a game that has no repercussions in my real life?

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:07 pm
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He seems to skip over the whole 'fantasy', as in not real, part of the 'MWV'. We are not an ancient people from a far away land who sacrifice people to our gods or create entire civilisations based on the fact that their leader is descended from god (that sounds familiar, but I digress) we live in a technocratic society that is slowly loosing its faith in anything BUT what can be readily seen or touched.

If anything his MWV has more in common with modern science than magic.

I'm going to shut up before this needs to be moved.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:20 pm
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I honestly sometimes think that these people, fundamentally, cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality. That they see a game like Grand Theft Auto, and think that the person on the screen is a *real person*, like a reality TV show, that Mario is a real person, that Dungeons and Dragons manuals are like newspapers.

Would explain their reaction some.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:52 pm
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Julzz wrote:
...or create entire civilisations based on the fact that their leader is descended from god (that sounds familiar, but I digress) ...

If anything his MWV has more in common with modern science than magic.

I'm going to shut up before this needs to be moved.
You're attempt at irony has fallen short of it's goal. Just so you know.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:53 pm
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Daemon wrote:
Julzz wrote:
...or create entire civilisations based on the fact that their leader is descended from god (that sounds familiar, but I digress) ...

If anything his MWV has more in common with modern science than magic.

I'm going to shut up before this needs to be moved.
You're attempt at irony has fallen short of it's goal. Just so you know.


Aaaand you just made it ironic again.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:00 pm
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Actually, the whole not-able-to-separate-fantasy-from-reality thing is a major feature of the gaming debate. The ones who hate gaming claim that the gamers are unable to separate fantasy from reality. However, in the literature, very little (and sometimes no) distinction is made between fantasy and reality; there are claims that in-game spellcasting involves performing an actual ritual, for example. It's quite silly.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:29 pm
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"Then why'd you have to cast Magic Missile?"

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"Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step to true panic."
--Freefall

A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
-- David J. Liszewski


Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:33 pm
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"And new, my brethren, the ritual incantation!"

*somber chanting voice*

"Up! Up! Down! Down! Left... Right... Left... Right... B, A, Start!"

...

Well, put that way, the Konami code *does* seem a bit Lovecraftian sinister...

I imagine a post-nuclear-holocaust world, thousands of years hence, ruled by a hegemony of powerful Technocrats of the Ancient Lore... worshiping at the Altar of the Almighty Konami.

Hey, that, actually, might be kinda cool.

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Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:36 pm
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"And now turn to page 5 where we shall sing the holy hymn "Boom Boom Dollar""


tis a tiny bit ridiculuos, no? still, the problem is you cant argue with zealots. you could use the best, most logical argument wtih absolutely zero flaws and they'll still end up going "but im right" over and over again like some form of comforting mantra (wide open spaces! wide open spaces!)

i like how he has the list of people who have died who are DnD players. couldnt i argue that christianity is evil and causes deaths by citing a whole heap of deaths of adolescents?

7: Christian, John Smith, Died age 21 in a car crash because he believed jesus would make the other cars drive around him.

25: Icecream Eater, Joe Schmoe, Died age 18 in a rip tide on [the] beach after consuming an icecream.

and who can tell me that there arent people of those ages who have died in those manners (car crash and drowning)? i mean, yeesh.

anyways, im done. i dont need ot convince you people that DnD isnt evil. now where'd i put my sacraficial dagger?

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Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:29 pm
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On the other hand, you also can't argue with anti-zealots (zealots against a cause) for the same reason. You can use the best, most logical arguments to support Christianity and religion, but there are a lot of people that refuse to accept it because of where it leads.

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Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:46 pm
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Does anyone know where Mr. Chick lives or if he's still alive?

The best way to show someone the truth is to have them participate. I think it would we awesome to have a D&D game with Chick, if only to watch him looking back and forth, waiting for one of us to say "HAHAHA! I ROLL DICE FOR SATAN! I GOT 666!!!!!" and start chanting. :P

I'd make sure it was the most mundane and fun game ever...like we have to save a village from wolves or something. See how he likes picking apart that. :P OOOH! And we need everyone to play Clerics or Palidins. Hehehe.

For actual fun, I'd go with Stephen Hawkings, naturally. Because he plays the best dwarves. 8)

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Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:54 pm
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It's funny, but in GURPS, rolling 666 is the WORST thing you can do. Plus, if you do it while casting a spell, it'll summon a demon that then tries to kill you.

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"Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step to true panic."
--Freefall

A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
-- David J. Liszewski


Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:02 pm
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UDUDLRLRBA _SELECT_ Start, I think you'll find.

And, on a related note, I'm getting my school's anti-D&D rules changed next week. ^_^ After a 6-month experiment approved by the school I'm demonstrating that it doesn't cause demon possession.

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Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:08 pm
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Please tell me you're going to publish your findings.

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"Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step to true panic."
--Freefall

A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
-- David J. Liszewski


Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:22 pm
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W00T! Fight the good fight, Toze-man.

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